irish trad mandolin spotting....

[Jill McAuley]

Someone posted this over on thesession.org looking for a tune id for the first tune in the set (which has been identified as The Old Forge), mandolin player front and centre....

[Francis J]

For anybody who doesn't know him, it's Declan Corey, a very fine player.

[Dagger Gordon]

Tremendous driving sound. I recognise the bassist - he used to be in Deiseal who were quite an interesting band.
I must say the guitarist makes full use of the capo - he has it somewhere around the 10th fret at the start then seems to move it for the other tunes. This whole capo shift for every tune is something the Irish do a fair bit.

But getting back to Declan. He's really good. Slightly unusual way he holds it, at quite an angle. Great fluid style though.

[John Kelly]

Great players all round, and as Dagger says, really driving along. But I find the whole thing becoming a bit repetitive as it goes on!

I've been aware of this with a lot of our excellent young Scottish bands over the past few tears; they have superb technique and play so well together as a group but many of the tunes lack melody, to my aging ears. I know that music for dancing is about the lift and the rhythm and they certainly get the feet tapping (test of a good tune?), but I miss a good strong melody line.

Now there's a whole can of worms opening up...

[Bertram Henze]

I hear you, John. I think the repetitive character has instrumental and stylistic origins:
- the melody is carried by a single dominant box (let's face it, it's Sharon Shannon in disguise), can you hear the mandolin? cos I can't.
- the constant perfection. It's ITM (Industrial Traditional Music).
- the technique is pretty universally applied to every tune in the same way, so it's also YAT (Yet Another Tune). There would be a chance for the army of accompanists to give each tune a dramatically different character, but it's not taken, the capo shifts make for an optical sensation but allow for maintaining one style across keys.

[Francis J]

The box player is Josephine Marsh, and that's the Josephine Marsh Band, which might explain the box being more to the front in the mix. I can hear Declan just fine (DJF). I think the whole clip is a bit muddy sounding, (thanks again youtube) but I think if you give it time, there's loads of variation in there.

[JeffD]

Jill what a fantastic idea for a thread. I look forward to many great postings.

[Jill McAuley]

I hear you, John. I think the repetitive character has instrumental and stylistic origins:
- the melody is carried by a single dominant box (let's face it, it's Sharon Shannon in disguise), can you hear the mandolin? cos I can't.
- the constant perfection. It's ITM (Industrial Traditional Music).
- the technique is pretty universally applied to every tune in the same way, so it's also YAT (Yet Another Tune). There would be a chance for the army of accompanists to give each tune a dramatically different character, but it's not taken, the capo shifts make for an optical sensation but allow for maintaining one style across keys.

Wow, I find that a fairly harsh review there Bertram. It's a bunch of people on stage playing music and having a great time at it. And there's a mandolin. I enjoyed it.

[Bertram Henze]

fairly harsh

I didn't say I'd not enjoyed it. I love Sharon Shannon's style, for instance, and she has also a quiet mandolin in the band, sometimes. But there are reasons why this music can be constant and predictable to other ears once a certain maturity is reached. You either concentrate on what is different or you concentrate on what is similar - and both different and similar features are intentional, no doubt about it. Such a discussion can be found on the Bluegrass side very often, too.

Now can somebody collect the worms and lock them back in that can, please?

[Dagger Gordon]

It's a bunch of people on stage playing music and having a great time at it. And there's a mandolin. I enjoyed it.

I enjoyed it too. And yes, there is a mandolin.

Have a closer listen to the bass player, for one thing. The Josephine video was from 2000, quite a while ago, which must have been somewhere around the time he was playing with Deiseal who were anything but predictable.

Anyway, is predictable so bad? Sometimes I just need to hear good players getting stuck into the tunes. And I thought they were great tunes. I didn't recognise the middle (more modern?) tune but the Old Forge certainly sounded like a good trad tune to me, and surely the last one is a classic trad Irish reel?

Also, I noted that the musicians and the audience really seemed at one. You could see the audience swaying to the music in their seats while the band tapped their feet bigtime and were quite visibly really into it.

I thought it was very good.

[Bertram Henze]

Predictable is not bad at all. When, for instance, I cross the Atlantic ocean in a propeller plane, a constant hum of the engines is exactly what I need, no surprises please - and music can give us exactly that reassuring mental hug.
ITM is a mixed bag in providing this or not: when the Bothy Band appeared in the 70s, they built daring harmonics and dramatic tune changes into their sets. OTOH, De Danann were pretty straightforward in the same period. And sessions have their own dos and don'ts again.

[catmandu2]

Beautiful and subtle duet playing - wonderful rhythm, plenty of group dynamics ( i dont think they were going for les pauls/rock). The unison mandolin provides a wonderful shimmer and sparkle to the lead instrument. And then you have two rhythm players.

Listen closer.

[Mike Anderson]

HUP! Loved this frankly, felt very like a session and nothing wrong with that.

[Bertram Henze]

The unison mandolin provides a wonderful shimmer and sparkle to the lead instrument.
...
Listen closer.

I wish I wouldn't have to strain to hear it. The mandolin should be just as prominent as the box - and would deserve it, too.

Here is one somewhat different approach spotted elsewhere:

[Shelagh Moore]

I enjoyed it too and the playing is good but tend towards the same view as Bertram and John in terms of the general style and dynamics.

[Gelsenbury]

These are two interestingly different approaches to the mandolin in Irish music, for sure. I wonder how many others we can find?

The playing is great in both examples. John's search for the clear melody line is something I often experience with reels. There are enough reels that make me sit up and listen, and lots of others that sound to me like lots of notes played very fast without a discernible connection or theme. I don't have the same experience with jigs, marches, polkas, hornpipes or waltzes.

It's part of my disturbed relationship with reels: They're scary to play because there are lots of notes to remember, and speed is my weak point. But not all reels inspire me to want to learn them either, for the reasons above.

[Bertram Henze]

There are enough reels that make me sit up and listen, and lots of others that sound to me like lots of notes played very fast without a discernible connection or theme.

I am out on a limb here, but I think that depends on a player's strategy of dedicating his playing technique to either
- pronounce the melody of the tune, subtly supported by the pulse of the rhythm, or
- pronounce the pulse of the rhythm, subtly using standard phrases to accomodate the melody and provide just enough resemblance for the other players to recognise the tune and join in. *

I think we can agree that the pulse is essential for dance tunes, but it can be overdone. Listen to this example from 5:40 into the video and stand amazed at how similar Miss McLeod's and Craig's Pipes can sound, if you always do that "waaayyy-ditti waaayyy-ditti" (oh, and there is a mandolin hidden in that example, too).
For contrast, I find Miss McLeod's much more melodically recognizable in this other example.

(*) I am not sure which category I belong in myself, so don't throw my videos at me. I'm working on it.

[Dagger Gordon]

As regards the mandolin volume in the first two examples, it's worth noting that Declan was playing through a microphone while the Dubliners were using pickups, which can always be turned up louder in my experience.
I thought the mandolin sound on the Dubliners clip was really harsh. Pretty bad actually. Volume certainly isn't everything.

I am not anti-pickup. Shooglenifty always have an effective mandolin sound (whoever is playing it) as does someone like Tim O'Brien. But it can take a bit of working on.

[Bertram Henze]

I am afraid the Dubliners example was recorded with a handheld device - no telling what the sound was like, then and there. But if it was rough and shrill, that's what the Dubliners always proudly stood for.

[Dagger Gordon]

Yes I understand that it wasn't a great recording, but I still recognise the sound. A harsh sound which I've spent years trying to avoid.

And I really like the Dubliners. As regards the rough and shrill (actually shrill isn't quite the word I would choose), to me Luke Kelly's singing was absolutely the real deal. I think that's probably what you mean.
It doesn't follow that I like a harsh, shrill mandolin sound, however.

[bruce.b]

I liked it. I love Josephine's box playing, and the upright bass sounded great. Couldn't hear the mandolin most of the time.

[Bertram Henze]

to me Luke Kelly's singing was absolutely the real deal. I think that's probably what you mean.

I was rather a fan of Ronnie Drew's voice, but yes, that's the character I was generally aiming at.
As for mandolin sound, taste is allowed to differ (another can of worms, basket of snakes or cage of dragons better left closed but opened many times on this forum).

[foldedpath]

I am not anti-pickup. Shooglenifty always have an effective mandolin sound (whoever is playing it) as does someone like Tim O'Brien. But it can take a bit of working on.

I lean fairly heavily in the anti-pickup direction, but it does require a decent PA system and someone who knows how to run the mics.

I saw the Tim O'Brien tour with Lúnasa recently. On the tunes where they played together, Tim used a mic and it sounded fine. All you could hear against the flute, fiddle, and pipes was that initial "ping" on the note attack, but that's just the nature of the beast when played along with sustaining instruments. I could still hear a mandolin in there somewhere.

Of course we mandolin players do train ourselves to hear that "ping," especially if you've ever played in a session. I wonder how much of that is heard by the audience. I have to hope that it adds something, or I guess I'd be playing a different instrument.

[catmandu2]

I saw the Tim O'Brien tour with Lúnasa recently. On the tunes where they played together, Tim used a mic and it sounded fine. All you could hear against the flute, fiddle, and pipes was that initial "ping" on the note attack, but that's just the nature of the beast when played along with sustaining instruments. I could still hear a mandolin in there somewhere.

But in this clip (OP) it's not the percussive element so much that I hear - but the timbre of the instrument that provides the nice color contrast with the box. Perhaps it's why I find this particular example appealing - it's a subtle sound mixture.

[Paul Kotapish]

I saw the Josephine Marsh when they were in California quite a few years ago now--they were terrific. The mandolin was quite audible at the Plough and Stars in S.F., although the bass was mixed so as to function as a CPR device. This track from their album--I'm only aware of one--is a better representation of their sound:



Sounds great to me.