Best CHEAP mixer for a live band ?

[Astro]

OK our old craigslist Mackie FX16 mixer is acting up and we may need a new mixer. We are a 4 piece acoustic "bar band" and about as delicate as a gorilla in a china shop. We arent paid much and need cheap so digital is out. We are all mic'd vocals and all play an instrument so we need at least 8 xlr's in but prefer close to twice that. From what I read Mackie's cheap stuff is in the toilet these days and I guess A&H zeds are better ? We play through 2 K10 (powered) speakers.

Any suggestions on what to get ?

[Mandoplumb]

If what you say is true stay away from the name brands, the pre amps and circuitry will be noiser but your description Leeds to believe that really don't matter A bar is not a recording studio.

[mandroid]

Carvin .. is Manufacturer direct sales . http://carvinaudio.com/collections/r...t-stereo-mixer

[Chip Stewart]

Carvin .. is Manufacturer direct sales . http://carvinaudio.com/collections/r...t-stereo-mixer

The Carvin is a good mixing board and has 12 XLR inputs. A Peavey PV14 mixing board is a good board, has 10 XLR inputs, and costs less money http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...=REG&A=details . I use a PV14 and I'm very happy with it.

[almeriastrings]

The A&H Zed's are excellent - but one with 16 XLR mic inputs might not quality as "cheap".. you'd be looking at a ZED 22FX, and those run to around $800. You should be able to find loads of analog desks on blowout sale, though... as they are essentially being absolutely crushed in the marketplace by digital these days. Here's why:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Ui16

Not only do you get a whole rack full of high quality FX, you also get feedback suppression, very good (full) graphic EQ on all your outputs - with real-time analysis (!), you can record your gigs to a USB stick, and can ditch all those long cable snakes.... individual remote monitor mixes ("more me") from any IOS or Android phone... shows and scenes all saved, cuts setup time by at least half. Despite all this, hardly any weight or bulk. I was talking only this week to someone I know with one of these major mixing console manufacturers, and they told me that sales of analog consoles have absolutely crashed as everyone either has, or is, or soon will switch to digital.

For $399.

[Pete Braccio]

Cheap and good = Behringer. Don't let people steer you off with horror stories about quality from a decade ago.

[almeriastrings]

Cheap and good = Behringer. Don't let people steer you off with horror stories about quality from a decade ago.

I'd agree with that - to some extent. Their new models are all re-designed, and are definitely built a lot better than their old stuff, which could be truly dire. Their catalog does still include some of the 'old stuff', though, so watch out for that. In particular, their digital mixers are very good indeed. For example:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/XR16

I've had the XR12 and XR18 (also the much larger X32) here and they are really very nicely made. Impressive, in fact. My only gripes with them relate to some very inconsistent software design and functions, but these issues would not affect everyone and many are 100% happy with them. Their Android control apps are more stable and have more functions than the IOS versions, in fact.

[Charlieshafer]

Just about to play with one of these, a Soundcraft Signature 10 just out. Preamps listed are great, has phantom, will be used outdoors where we're mixing small combos and sound quality is solely determined by wind, ambient noise, cars going by, etc.,and not by microphones or killer boards. Speakers will also be QSC 10's. Why I like it and think it will be fine:
$299.

Soundcraft. Sure, it won't be the killer bomb-proof build quality the top A&H's and old school Soundcrafts are, but refer back to $299.

Analog, so no unforeseen issues in the great outdoors with wifi.

Really good pre-amp circuitry in the mic inputs, which is most important to me.

Small, light, and if a cow steps on it, $299.

[almeriastrings]

They are very good analog desks, Charlie. I tested a couple of very early examples, before they were released. Not only are the preamps nice, but the EQ's are very good also. The only thing I did not like was the lack of illumination on the channel mutes. They are a kind of burgundy red color with a white bar, and in poor lighting, it is really hard to see if they are on or off. Same criticism applies to the smaller A&H ZED's. I also know that there have been some production "issues" with the MTK (multitrack output versions). Hopefully those will be solved shortly. The non-MTK versions are not affected.

[Astro]

I'd agree with that - to some extent. Their new models are all re-designed, and are definitely built a lot better than their old stuff, which could be truly dire. Their catalog does still include some of the 'old stuff', though, so watch out for that. In particular, their digital mixers are very good indeed. For example:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/XR16

I've had the XR12 and XR18 (also the much larger X32) here and they are really very nicely made. Impressive, in fact. My only gripes with them relate to some very inconsistent software design and functions, but these issues would not affect everyone and many are 100% happy with them. Their Android control apps are more stable and have more functions than the IOS versions, in fact.

OK I'm changing my mind after seeing the SC ui 16.

But didnt you say you were having trouble with it a few months ago? If I remember, you preferred the behringer digital, right?

Some stupid questions about the ui 16 : Why would it have 4 xlr and 8 combo "In's" ? For 4 vocal mics, would it be better to use the 4 single xlr instead of plugging to combo or does it not matter? And the combo ones means you can plug more mics in if you want, right? So if you were an acapella group you could have 12 mics in and they would all be just as good? (we aren't im just trying to be clear of what it means). Do you ever plug an xlr AND a quater inch into the same track? (obviously they would have the same mix/settings so not sure why). I guess its either/or.

Also, if i use my fishman pro eq as my preamp for my piezo equipped mando, do I still engage the HiZ mode on that track or do I not need the preamp anymore?

You can tell how little I know which is another reason I was going to avoid digital ( I was just now "getting" the analogue mixer.

AND what about this B XR 18 or 16 ? http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/X18

Which of the 2 do you prefer assuming the price difference isnt crucial. But we need the feedback supression and I'm not sure the x18 has it.

[almeriastrings]

Well... all these things have their "pros" and "cons". You just have to weigh them up.

Right off the bat (as we say), the Behringer preamps have a lower noise floor than the Soundcraft Ui series... but, there are easy workarounds for that. The Behringer control software (IOS and Android apps) are much more quirky, and lack the consistency and flexibility of the truly cross-platform HTML5 Soundcraft interface. So, it is not entirely clear cut. I had some Behringer XR's, but ended up sticking with the Soundcraft Ui's for a number of installations that I manage. Why? Because the control GUI is one of the best I've ever seen (nicer, in my opinion, than the Mackie Masterfader 4.0 app, and also than the QSC Touchmix software). You can (fortunately) download DEMO versions of all the above and try them out without a mixer. Make your own mind up on that. I have used them all (also the A&H QU apps) and I still like the Soundraft Ui GUI best.

Combi sockets just mean you can plug EITHER an XLR or a 1/4 jack in there.

The Ui16 actually has eight combi (XLR or jack) inputs and four XLR only. You can use up to 12 mics, or any combination of jacks or XLR's.So, yes, it is 'either or'. The 'Hi-Z' inputs are on Ch1 and Ch2. They are not really high enough impedance for passive piezo pickups, however. I'd recommend keeping your preamp for that purpose.

I like the Ui's, overall. I run 4 of them. Three Ui16's and a Ui12 at various venues. They are easy to train people on, and they are very consistent and reliable. They do lack some features of higher end (much, much more expensive consoles), such as multi-track recording, full virtual soundcheck, full manual control on the gates (currently), but 90% of what you get on a $5K plus desk is all there. I used one at our own gig last Thursday, and the end result was really good. I also have a Stagescape M20D and a couple of other much larger, considerably more expensive consoles, but the Ui16 did the job and more than delivered great results.

[Astro]

So looks like the SC ui16 is next for me.

MUCH THANKS EVERYONE

[mandroid]

I pad based Mixers are the new thing .. already have the tablet? thats a Majority of the cost, I think

[mandowilli]

One word of advise to anyone considering an analog mixer is to try and get one with sweepable midrange on the channel strips.

[almeriastrings]

Of the really big advantages for acoustic musicians of these digital mixers is that you have a vastly more sophisticated range of EQ's at your fingertips on every channel. These can include 'simple' 3 band, though 4 band parametric, to dynamic EQ's and graphic EQ's in various 'flavors' - enough stuff that in the analog world you'd need literally racks of gear to emulate. You can also save channel profiles and entire snapshots - so, for example, if you play a octave mando on some tunes, a guitar on others, and a mandolin on the rest, you can have precise EQ settings for each all on the same channel and can switch between them in an instant. You can also save profiles for your monitors and your mains for all the venues you use - saving loads of setup time, as you have instant recall. You only realise how useful this all is once you start using it.... It is a game changer, and with the prices crashing down, it is putting the kind of facilities that only 10 years ago you'd only find on very large touring rigs and on $50,000 type installations within almost anyone's reach. It is absolutely killing analog live sound mixers.

[onassis]

When I saw Lonesome River Band last year at a festival, they came out after the previous act rolling a small gear rack and switched the stage mics to their own mixer. Their sound man sat beside us in the audience with a ipad, did a quick level check, the guys set their own IE monitors with their smart phones, then they launched into the first song. Probably 10-15 minutes total set up.

[Astro]

Yes, but extraordinary versatility, shaping, effects, infinite screens of stuff to tweak ... it gets pretty intimidating to a simple minded musician and reluctant sound tech newbie. I'm only doing this because the other guys in the band wont and I'm tired of our amplified sound being crap when we work so hard to sound good unplugged. Everyone in my band has ADD and they wont wait for a 5 minute sound check --no way we've ever had a 15 minute one !

It took me 20 gigs and lots of googling to finally get a somewhat decent sound off that old analogue mixer. I can already tell that all this digital tweaking is something I'll have to do before we ever get to the gig and it looks like that could take endless hours to figure out. Just the thought of having to check for and execute software updates throws chills down my spine. I did not grow up with computers and cuss them as much as use them.

I want that button to push that says "sounds like you only louder".

Hopefully they have a plug and play button.

[pops1]

I have been at soundcheck where it took forever because the sound guy was digital and just learning. I am sure it has it's advantages, but as an old guy who has been doing this for decades, they didn't even have computers when I started gigging, it takes me a minute or two for sound check. Seem like most rooms are similar and I know the instruments and what they need so it's really quite quick for me. Plus I don't have a tablet, and wouldn't know how to use my phone so I guess I will stay in the past. Should be a lot of used analog gear cheap to choose from.

[Astro]

I just spent 30 minutes watching the first few of their tutorials on their web page. Its pretty amazing what can be done. The learning curve is time consuming at first but then should save lots of time down the road. Once I figure out each vocal and instrument setting, they can be easily stored. Plus there should be less spaghetti of wires since the box can be set in the middle of us between the speakers.

Like pops1 above, the majority of our gigs are in very similar spaces so I dont think it will change much but we do have some very different original songs so it would be cool to save a snapshot of some effects we may want for some of our more quirky songs. And one of our vocalists needs a limiter or compressor as every now and then he forgets to back off the mic when he explodes up the volume and clips stuff out. So hopefully I can figure that out. But 90% of the time, we have only very basic needs. An analogue board would be easier and fine for us but we may as well change with the times while I still can. Maybe I can figure out how to record the live show and make a crude CD to sell.??

[almeriastrings]

Honestly - they are pretty easy (in the main). You start off with the basic stuff, and gradually dive into the deeper settings. The one area that tends to cause most problems is the wireless (or ethernet) connections, but if you have ever set up a home network, there is nothing too wild here. In terms of 'ease of use' the Ui's are really good (and you can connect easily to Android tablets, PC's and Macs). Next.. the Mackie DL's are good, but much more limited with connectivity....the Behringer's are very good with performance, but the software is not so solid. The Allen & Heath QU's are very nice, but have a much, much steeper leaning curve and cost much more. Finally, the Line 6 Stagescape M20D is by far the most full-featured medium-small digital console out there... amazingly comprehensive and flexible, but not cheap, and Line 6 seems to have lost interest in in. Likewise, the QSC Touchmix is very good, but you don't have the connectivity of the Ui's and they are three or four times the price. Having used all of these, I do think the Ui's are well worth a try as an excellent intro to just what digital tablet mixing can do.

PS: Record on the Ui's is easy. Put a fast USB stick in the relevant socket and hit the 'record' button. Just like on an old tape machine. I've had some very good recordings off them.

[mandowilli]

I found the learning curve to be short on the digital mixer and once you are up and running I think it is much more intuitive.

And oh, the features!

[lloving]

The A&H Zed's are excellent - but one with 16 XLR mic inputs might not quality as "cheap".. you'd be looking at a ZED 22FX, and those run to around $800. You should be able to find loads of analog desks on blowout sale, though... as they are essentially being absolutely crushed in the marketplace by digital these days. Here's why:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Ui16

Not only do you get a whole rack full of high quality FX, you also get feedback suppression, very good (full) graphic EQ on all your outputs - with real-time analysis (!), you can record your gigs to a USB stick, and can ditch all those long cable snakes.... individual remote monitor mixes ("more me") from any IOS or Android phone... shows and scenes all saved, cuts setup time by at least half. Despite all this, hardly any weight or bulk. I was talking only this week to someone I know with one of these major mixing console manufacturers, and they told me that sales of analog consoles have absolutely crashed as everyone either has, or is, or soon will switch to digital.

For $399.

Agree 100%

[Mandoplumb]

Astro said that he wanted a button that sounds " like you only louder" in my opinion that is harder with digital. It is so precise that it sounds harsh. If you're listening to a mandolin on your neighbor' porch it don't sound like that.I play BG gospel so the environment I set up in does not have the noise level some of you deal with, but I use one ribbon mic a tube pre-amp and house speakers ( no monitors). The best compliment I can receive is " it sounds like I was sitting in the kitchen in the middle of the band" when I hear a comment like that I know the PA didn't color our sound.

[Charlieshafer]

I think any mixer can color sound, even the old analogue desks. Part of the learning curve with any new equipment is how to tame it so it can sound more natural. Microphones are the biggest offender here; it's easy to get ones that are way too bright and need to be eq'd so they're smoother sounding. If anything, any lack of coloration which a digital desk can certainly achieve is preferable. My old Allen and Heath can sometimes make things sound a little too warm, depending, again, on microphones. The DPA clip ons, for example, need a little brightening up, especially when on a cello. It's all in the mix, literally and figuratively.

[almeriastrings]

Astro said that he wanted a button that sounds " like you only louder" in my opinion that is harder with digital. It is so precise that it sounds harsh. If you're listening to a mandolin on your neighbor' porch it don't sound like that.I play BG gospel so the environment I set up in does not have the noise level some of you deal with, but I use one ribbon mic a tube pre-amp and house speakers ( no monitors). The best compliment I can receive is " it sounds like I was sitting in the kitchen in the middle of the band" when I hear a comment like that I know the PA didn't color our sound.

Merely my opinion, but I truly think the "digital sounds harsh" view may have been true once, many years ago, when the A/D conversion technology was far more primitive than it is now, but today, even lower cost consoles (and studio recording interfaces) feature very good conversion. The very best stuff is phenomenal. They also require a somewhat different approach with regard to gain staging and levels than analog (you can clip analog and get away with it, and and the same time you have to keep levels up to try to avoid hiss, while with digital you really need to avoid clipping entirely, and once past the A/D converter in the system, you can apply large levels of gain with almost zero noise). I grew up with analog consoles, but apart from on rare occasions, now use digital most of the time. I certainly don't find them either sterile or harsh. The same thing was said of early CD players, for similar reasons (poor A/D conversion) but you don't hear that much these days. So, I think it is a combination of a) very much better technology today and b) learning the different approaches required for analog vs. digital mixing.

It is also worth noting that even if you are strictly analog up front, the vast majority of high grade power amplifiers and powered speakers these days are 'digital' in their own right, with their own A/D converters and DSP (Digital Signal Processing) built in with Class D power stages. So if you have heard QSC's, Yamaha DXR's and DSR's, RCF's, Turbosound and many, many other well liked and great sounding speakers - those are digital, not analog.