Dave Apollon Photos

[DataNick]

...I frankly believe ALL mandolin players should be required to listen to his playing, ESPECIALLY Bluegrass players. The reasons are obvious.

I think most current bluegrass mandolinists get the same type of thing from Chris Thile; now DA may well could be classified as the antecedent to Thile, but you get generally the same style with Thile...

[DavidKOS]

I think most current bluegrass mandolinists get the same type of thing from Chris Thile; now DA may well could be classified as the antecedent to Thile, but you get generally the same style with Thile...

You do get quality from Thile, but I do not really hear the similarity in playing style. Perhaps they both have similar levels of technical ability, but Chris still has a bit of a bluegrassy American "accent" to my musical ear...Apollon does not.

Maybe you could point out something of Thile's I may have not heard that would sound more like Apollon, please?

[DataNick]

You do get quality from Thile, but I do not really hear the similarity in playing style. Perhaps they both have similar levels of technical ability, but Chris still has a bit of a bluegrassy American "accent" to my musical ear...Apollon does not.

Maybe you could point out something of Thile's I may have not heard that would sound more like Apollon, please?

Hey David!

I think your mando "ear" is better than mine Brotha! When I listen to Thile play Bach all I hear is classical/baroque style, etc.

But as a prominent classical mandolinist friend of mine pointed out to me, paraphrasing here:"Thile's Bach phrasings are like Dizzy Gilespie playing Bach"....so you could very well hear those accents/stylings that my ear just doesn't pick up on. I think it's the technical virtuosity that is similar, eh?

[JeffD]

You do get quality from Thile, but I do not really hear the similarity in playing style. Perhaps they both have similar levels of technical ability, but Chris still has a bit of a bluegrassy American "accent" to my musical ear...Apollon does not?

"Accent" is usually something one hears from something outside, from the other. We don't hear our own accent. So perhaps what you experience would alternately be described as "Dave Apollon has a European accent to his playing." I dunno. Depends on one's experience.

What they seem, from one perspective anyway, to have in common is a certain technical unapproachability. I know I feel like their playing is unteathered, has no connection to my playing. Its like one might not be surprised to learn that they didn't even breath air like we do, so unreachably brilliant is their playing. Its a characteristic I don't notice as much in other mandolin greats. For example Marty Stuart from the Americana point of view, or Avi Avital from the classical world. Their playing just exudes pure unalloyed love for the music, love for the tradition, love for the particular piece they are playing.

Maybe I am thinking too much about this. I do agree that Dave Apollon is a must listen.

[f5loar]

Good adrticle...but

"It is interesting to note that throughout his career, Dave used the Gibson F-5 mandolin exclusively"

So why the pictures of him with an L and H? Sure he played Gibsons, but not exclusively, at least not at first.

Well, he did after Gibson came out with the F5. Nobody was using the Gibson F5 before it came out. However you would think Dave would have gotten one of the first ones and not one from the April 25, 1923 batch. I mean was he out on tour from June 1922 to April, 1923 and had to wait until he saw one to get one? Probably. But yeah, like Monroe, once he heard the tone of the Gibson F5 he was hooked for life.

[f5loar]

I think most current bluegrass mandolinists get the same type of thing from Chris Thile; now DA may well could be classified as the antecedent to Thile, but you get generally the same style with Thile...

Dave was labeled the "Master of the Mandolin" during his career. If you had to make a family tree out of this it would pretty simple: Apollon - Burns - Grisman - Thile. All others fit in-between those 4 for now anyway. I don't think Bill Monroe got much from listening to Apollon at the beginning of his career. He was on a different path with the mandolin.

[DataNick]

...I don't think Bill Monroe got much from listening to Apollon at the beginning of his career. He was on a different path with the mandolin.

+1...

And that's what needs to be kept in mind when one tries to compare Monroe with Apollon/Thile....Bill Monroe was a bluesman I believe at his core. Trying to compare his style with Apollon/Thile is like trying to compare Robert Johnson with Paco DeLucia: totally different playing styles that really have nothing to do with each other. It's like comparing the Blues with Classical music and exclaiming that Segovia is better than Roy Buchanan...personally I don't think they have really anything in common...

[Benjamin T]

Here is what I've been waiting to post...
Album cover

Notes from the 1941 Decca 78rpm album (possibly 5-41)

[DavidKOS]

But as a prominent classical mandolinist friend of mine pointed out to me, paraphrasing here:"Thile's Bach phrasings are like Dizzy Gillespie playing Bach"....so you could very well hear those accents/stylings that my ear just doesn't pick up on. I think it's the technical virtuosity that is similar, eh?

Definitely both are of a high level of virtuosity.

I say Thile has an American accent because I am an American that has both naturally AND by choice sounded more like a European (except playing jazz- I'm from New Orleans!) so I have a skewed viewpoint!

[QUOTE=JeffD;1494885]"Accent" is usually something one hears from something outside, from the other. We don't hear our own accent. So perhaps what you experience would alternately be described as "Dave Apollon has a European accent to his playing." I dunno. Depends on one's experience./QUOTE]

YES...like I said above, I somewhat prefer that European sound, unless you are playing American styles like jazz or Bluegrass.

There's nothing wrong with an accent - Dave sure had one speaking English!

Well, he did after Gibson came out with the F5. Nobody was using the Gibson F5 before it came out. However you would think Dave would have gotten one of the first ones and not one from the April 25, 1923 batch. I mean was he out on tour from June 1922 to April, 1923 and had to wait until he saw one to get one? Probably. But yeah, like Monroe, once he heard the tone of the Gibson F5 he was hooked for life.

And these guys were in America. After the 20's who was making fine bowlbacks here? The F series were fine for the vaudeville stage and sure suited Dave's European/classical chops!

But he did use an L and H, another fine American mandolin.

[JeffD]

he did use an L and H, another fine American mandolin.

Yea that's pretty cool too.

[mandopops]

After I had been playing Mandolin for a number of years, my dad asked me if I ever heard of a guy named Dave Apollon. By that time I had. He said he saw him on stage once. He didn't remember a lot of details. I'm sure it had been 50 years or so. The fact that he did remember seeing him some 50 years later means he left some kind of an impression.
I used to play Italian music around the city with a bunch of older guys and one of them told me he had met Apollon in Vegas. He said he played a little piece for Dave. Apollon said "Now, that's the way a Mandolin is supposed to be played" Well, this guy would tell this story with pride. The fellow was no great Mandolin player, so I think Dave was being kind. I think that says something nice about Apollon, that he would offer a compliment to this fan.
Joe B

[Ken Waltham]

Well, he did after Gibson came out with the F5. Nobody was using the Gibson F5 before it came out. However you would think Dave would have gotten one of the first ones and not one from the April 25, 1923 batch. I mean was he out on tour from June 1922 to April, 1923 and had to wait until he saw one to get one? Probably. But yeah, like Monroe, once he heard the tone of the Gibson F5 he was hooked for life.

Tom, I think that's exactly right.. when they came out, he went to the F5 and never changed. Before.. well, you couldn't use one, could you? Good thinking.

[Timbofood]

Tom does state the obvious, prior to its release NO ONE played an F-5! So the earlier pictures with th L&H make perfect sense. After the release, it's pretty clear he had a very close connection with the Gibson company and maintained it for the balance of his career.
As for stage presence, the man is a consummate professional, he understands stagecraft, blocking, and how to get an audience absorbed into the act. He does not look like he's being fitted for a suit, he looks like he just was given the tailor made one. That's a pro, energy is expended in the playing. Any embellishment through motion was in "His native dances incorporated into the music". That's Vaudeville!
So sorry I never had the opportunity to see him live!


Only fifty some posts the get Thile in the mix, I'm surprised.

[Ken Waltham]

Dave was labeled the "Master of the Mandolin" during his career. If you had to make a family tree out of this it would pretty simple: Apollon - Burns - Grisman - Thile. All others fit in-between those 4 for now anyway. I don't think Bill Monroe got much from listening to Apollon at the beginning of his career. He was on a different path with the mandolin.

I also think this is exactly right. FWIW, I don't even think Monroe listened to anyone, unless they were "live", in his sphere. I don't think he had the opportunity or the means to be listening to records in his formative years.
Tom nails the family tree!

[DavidKOS]

BTW, to my ears Grisman does not sound at all like Apollon. When I hear Apollon's tone I can hear the use of a pointed old-school pick, not a rounded poker chip. And there's the way they phrase rhythms...I just do not hear the similarity.

[Timbofood]

I agree David, the tone is completely different. Some effect in phrasing comes through but, the "sharpness" is completely different.
I think it's the pointy pick (natural shell most likely) which adds to the "dynamic" in the Appolon recordings.
Time for more photos!

[Ken Waltham]

I feel you guys are correct, but, I am not sure that's where Tom was going. I think he was tracking a timeline of a different type of mandolin playing or style, than the Monroe school. ( Bluegrass in general)

[Timbofood]

Same church, different pew Ken. I think Tom was of the opinion that BG players could learn an excellent perspective of attack and control that is different from WSM, not better, simply different. The greater breadth of experience and exposure, the better understanding of the instrument not, just a style.
Feel free to shoot me down if I'm nuts Tom but, that's how I took your statement.
As for the exchange with David, that was more about the difference in tonal quality between the two talents. Same openness for correction to you David.
This is a very interesting thread from so many sides, instruments, style, persona. I'm enjoying this one with great interest!

[DavidKOS]

I agree David, the tone is completely different. Some effect in phrasing comes through but, the "sharpness" is completely different.
I think it's the pointy pick (natural shell most likely) which adds to the "dynamic" in the Appolon recordings.
Time for more photos!

So maybe a "what sort of pick did Dave use" thread to go with all the BM pick threads?

As for the exchange with David, that was more about the difference in tonal quality between the two talents.

Exactly. Anyone that has read my posts knows I MUCH prefer a pointy pick, both to play AND to listen to. So no wonder I prefer the Apollon tone...plus he uses all those frets (the missing one only proves he really used that stuff live).

Of all mandolinists I've heard Apollon ranks as one of my all time favorites. What a surprise....not.

[DataNick]

I also think this is exactly right. FWIW, I don't even think Monroe listened to anyone, unless they were "live", in his sphere...

+1...

And I would postulate here that Bill Monroe might have had the opportunity to see/hear Dave Apollon live in the Chicago area that he migrated to in the late 20s. Think of it: DA certainly was known for his mandolin virtuosity, I would think a young Bill Monroe, given the opportunity, might have ventured out to catch a performance or two!

Also I think there's a good chance that Bill Monroe also got a chance to hear some of the black blues mandolinists at that time who would have possibly been on that circuit of Chicago blues clubs, etc. When I listen to recordings of Al Miller (I think that's his name) I hear a lot of the same technique that Bill Monroe demonstrated in his Monroe Brothers recordings in the 1930s.

[Timbofood]

I'm more inclined to more point than many. The "poker chip" style just does not work for me at all, I have tried it and tried to like it but, it's like that obnoxious friend that you just can't quite bring yourself to tell to "Go Away and, don't come back!" Sorry you round pick fans but, that's just my feeling on them.

[Benjamin T]

On the third page I photographed the writer mentions whalebone among others as a pick material.

[bingoccc]

On the third page I photographed the writer mentions whalebone among others as a pick material.

Whalebone in this context probably referred to baleen. It's not bone, but it is from a whale.

[Timbofood]

Good point but, just as illegal to own, I believe. There was celluloid and a few other materials available at the time but, nothing like what we have today.
I think the point David and I were making was the shape (not necessarily material) was more pointed than round.
Baleen was also the material used in "whalebone" corsets, in more cases than not where flexibility is concerned, baleen is most often the "bone" used. Skeletal bone was used for other items, Ahab's leg for one.

[DavidKOS]

On the third page I photographed the writer mentions whalebone among others as a pick material.

Whalebone in this context probably referred to baleen. It's not bone, but it is from a whale.

USed to used in corsets and such, very stiff but elastic. I assume just a politically incorrect as tortoise shell, and superseded by modern plastics.

Good point but, just as illegal to own, I believe. There was celluloid and a few other materials available at the time but, nothing like what we have today.
I think the point David and I were making was the shape (not necessarily material) was more pointed than round.

Yeah, it's the shape. I spent a little time today listening to an Apollon collection and his tone definitely shows the accuracy and precise attack of a sharper pick.