Just an old figure of speach that my family uses for mandolins.Originally Posted by Jeff Mando
Re: How do you justify a high end mandolin? Or do you?
Just an old figure of speach that my family uses for mandolins.
Re: How do you justify a high end mandolin? Or do you?
This reminds me of an apocryphal story of a master violinist who was teaching a master class. He owned a very famous violin (Strad or Guarneri or the like) and he was well known for the superb tone of his playing.
Between sessions of the class he kept overhearing students comments like "sure, if I had a violin like that I'd sound great too!"
At the end of the masterclass there was a public concert featuring the master playing one of the great violin concertos. He took his bows at the finale and then smashed his violin over his music stand! He explained that he had gone out to a pawn shop that afternoon and found a junker violin to perform on to demonstrate that the skill of the player matters a lot more than the instrument.
For wooden musical fun that doesn't involve strumming, check out:
www.busmanwhistles.com
Handcrafted pennywhistles in exotic hardwoods.
Re: How do you justify a high end mandolin? Or do you?
less MAS more playing?
Re: How do you justify a high end mandolin? Or do you?
Lots of great advice here.
I've made a living playing guitar and mandolin, and although I do like the tonal variety afforded by owning several instruments, I don't have a collector's mentality and have never owned more than I actually have the time to play regularly. I currently have more than I've ever owned: 3 guitars, 3 mandolins and a cittern – but all of them are really special.
After 50 years of playing I've come to a few conclusions about acquiring instruments that I've listed below. YMMV.
- It always bugs me to see 'high-end' and 'high-dollar' used interchangeably. Although they're obviously related, high-end is not the same as high-dollar, so let's take money out of the equation for now, leaving high-end to mean only the finest-sounding instruments.
- We all want. We want, then we get, then we want again, forever, so let's take want (MAS) out of the equation for now. Leaving us with...
- What do we actually need in an instrument? I believe that, to progress as musicians, all we really need is instruments that will constantly inspire us to pick them up and play them. Since our tastes, ears and abilities all change over time, this is sometimes a moving target and easier said than done. And, of course, an intense want can sometimes convince us that it's a need, but back to our story…
- Over a long playing career, sampling many, many instruments, the sounds that inspire me have become increasingly specific, refined, and rarely encountered, to the point that, for better or worse, only a truly Exceptional (my term for my personal best-of-the-best), instrument will really knock my socks off.
- The Exceptional is just that: the exception, and finding one is not easy and may take a long time. Also, your Exceptional may be different from mine and that's as it should be.
- Well-known and respected builders are a good place to start, but a famous name is no guarantee, and the Exceptional can sometimes be found in surprising places.
- Back to price. I've found that, in general, an Exceptional instrument is seldom cheap, but sometimes less than I would have thought. When you find an Exceptional instrument it will have a price that may be easily within your means, a difficult financial proposition, or a fantasy, but if passion drives you, a way will often be found. Money is just money, but the Exceptional is rare, and while I've never made more than a modest income, I have always found it much more difficult to find an Exceptional instrument than it is to find the money to pay for it.
- When I began a methodical search for an Exceptional mandolin I played many high-dollar instruments to get a sense of the tonal landscape as a reference point. My "Top 3" reference mandolins were a Duff (around $10K) Matt Flinner's Gilchrist (around $20K) and John Reischman's Loar (around $200K). That huge $190K price range was encouraging to me, because I felt that, with patience, I could find a mandolin on the lower end of that range, or even below it, and that a truly Exceptional mandolin might actually be within reach. And so it proved to be.
- Don't automatically equate the Exceptional with famous names and high prices. You get to decide what is Exceptional - to you - and with patience, you can perhaps find your 'dream' instrument for less than you might have thought.
- Finally, if you want to be certain (as much as you ever can be) that you've found an Exceptional instrument, play it before you buy it. Always.
Re: How do you justify a high end mandolin? Or do you?
Nice post. Brand names and money are irrelevant when the main goal is achievement. In a parallel universe, one must always remember Emma "Grandma" Gatewood, who, at age 67 became the first woman (and only fifth ever) to complete the Appalachian Trail. Her backpack was a laundry bag, her tent a shower curtain, and she wore a pair of Keds sneakers. No Patagonia, no North Face, no Timberland, no R.E.I.
Cool, rare and unique hand made instruments are fun. I want them, too. But there is only "want", not "need." Regardless of how good you are.
Re: How do you justify a high end mandolin? Or do you?
While reading this entire thread, I have changed my mind about 20 times as to whether or not to upgrade. By the end of the thread I decided to stick with my J.Bovier F5.
Re: How do you justify a high end mandolin? Or do you?
See Chris? When you look at it from that prospective, the Duff you've been eyeballing is 'High-End' quality and would be quite a frugal purchase!
Re: How do you justify a high end mandolin? Or do you?
OK, so lots of responses on this - but here's my thoughts for what it's worth. I could've had a great single mandolin from a legend with all the money I've spent on Mando family. At least if I'd spent £7k on just one mandolin. In the end I spent 3 & 4K on the same maker's instruments. Because I needed two - a spare for onstage. THey're two different voices - the bespoke one for me is deep in tone, and finally coming out of its shell. The other one belonged to English folky Rex Preston. It's a much less bassy, but more hi Fi sound.
I like that I have the choice, but for me 4K was a LOT to justify to me, and the missus.
I'm still crap though. I'm a songwriter who liked chords trying to focus enough to do more than just chords, and still struggling.
What I found wasn't a question so much as "am I good enough?" - which I find to be a silly (no hurt meant!) reason to not upgrade, but more of "how much feels excessive financially?".
I tell you now, the moment my Forster gzouk started to shine, I knew that high class is worth it for the feeling it gives you & the inspiration to play. If you're wanting away from a cheaper instrument it's because you are aspiring & you're enthusiastic, and love your craft. So if you have that shot to do it, do it, because tomorrow may be a different story.
My name is Rob, and I am Lord of All Badgers
Tenor Guitars: Acoustic: Mcilroy ASP10T, ‘59 Martin 0-18t. Electric: ‘57 Gibson ETG-150, ‘80s Manson Kestrel
Mandolins: Davidson f5, A5 "Badgerlin".
Bouzouki: Paul Shippey Axe
My band's website
Re: How do you justify a high end mandolin? Or do you?
The "want vs. need" debate has merit, but is almost boring...or at least, not very exciting! Or perhaps stated as "survival vs. enjoying life" would be another way to put it. You can survive on eating crackers and water everyday for the rest of your life, BUT you may bore yourself to death in the process! Same with instruments. Great music can be played on an uninspiring instruments, but hey, why not play something that inspires you?
Re: How do you justify a high end mandolin? Or do you?
It all boils down to want vs need ! With an Ellis A I had to decide whether getting an Ellis F5 was a want or a need and after pondering this I decided that it definitely was a need !
Re: How do you justify a high end mandolin? Or do you?
Love how some of these threads really get me to thinking. I've decided to dispense with usage of the term "high end" and start saying "high quality" from now on. To me, it's way more accurate and much less "mandolin snobby." There is hope for me yet!
Re: How do you justify a high end mandolin? Or do you?
THAT is wisdom right there, every word of it. I mentioned in my prior response that I'd been down the $10K+ path with a custom guitar. At the time, I already owned a Martin D-16H that I'd bought for under $1000 and that I really cherished. I also owned two somewhat high end Taylors. Bought the Klein, sold the Klein, sold one of the Taylors, still have the other Taylor (only because the wife won't let me sell it), and love that D-16H more than any guitar in the world. Give me the pick of any guitar on the planet - it's the one in my closet. I'm hoping that Northfield M I just bought becomes that mandolin for me. So far it's holding up its end of the bargain...
"Well, I don't know much about bands but I do know you can't make a living selling big trombones, no sir. Mandolin picks, perhaps..."
Re: How do you justify a high end mandolin? Or do you?
The majority of discussion in this thread has been based on the $10K "high quality" price range. It would be interesting to learn thoughts on the upper end of the new builds, the $20K - $25K range. There are a handful of builders, most maintain a multi-year backlog and just a few of their mandolins show up on the used market. All of this indicates demand out pacing supply so there must be some logical purchase reasoning. Setting aside collectors, it would be helpful to hear from players who would or would not make this final step, as well as those who did and now own these mandolins. I am not suggesting a re-hash of the "If money were no object" fun posts but a continuation of the type of discussion, we have had here, that has been so valuable.
Re: How do you justify a high end mandolin? Or do you?
In one thread above a person talked about making the best deal. Over the years playing mandolin, I have bought and sold more instruments than I would like to admit. In the beginning, making the best deal was my prerogative. I was trying to get the most mandolin for the money. During the last three or four years, my goal has changed to finding instruments that I have a relationship with. At one time when I had my first Ellis F5, I thought I really wanted to get a new DMM to replace my Ellis. During my search, I came across a fine RSDMM (Ricky Skaggs Distressed Master Model). I bought it thinking I had discovered my ultimate mandolin. I put my Ellis up for sale. As much as I appreciated the RSDMM, great grass tone, easy to play, fine workmanship, the insturment did not speak to me. Was funny, I decided to keep my Ellis. When I called Walter Carter, he said he was just going to call me and let me know my Ellis sold. I was heartbroken. I put the RSDMM up for sale and ordered a new Ellis. That ended up being a very expensive series of mistakes, but am happy with the result. In that time I also bought a used Old Wave mandola, which replaced a more expensive mandola. The Old Wave spoke to my playing in a way the other instrument did not. So buying an instrument has stopped being a mental exercise but dictated by the heart.
Tony Huber
1930 Martin Style C #14783
2011 Mowry GOM
2013 Hester F4 #31
2014 Ellis F5 #322
2017 Nyberg Mandola #172
Re: How do you justify a high end mandolin? Or do you?
I think this post should have ended with the wise words of Jmagill...there's nothing more to be said or needs to be said
Re: How do you justify a high end mandolin? Or do you?
Years ago my wife had a passionate, irrational desire to buy a particular show horse - a former world champion - for $10,000. I thought she had completely lost her mind, especially because we had bought the half-brother for $3,000 and he was a great horse. She bought him and a few months later I rode him for the first time. I immediately saw why anyone would spend that kind of money and more on a horse. Over time, I rode a good number of world champions, saw the qualities they had in common, and saw how the purchase prices reflected those qualities. The two main things to me were simply the unequaled comfort and pleasure of riding a horse that could do it all, and the lessons that those horses taught me on every ride about horses and how to be a good rider. I learned far more from them than from all horsemen and all average horses combined. OTH I rode a couple of Very expensive world champions that I wouldn't take for free.
Simply put, the price and the "breeding" of a particular mandolin are probably representative of the essential qualities, but you really need to play it first before buying because not all will be suitable.
Re: How do you justify a high end mandolin? Or do you?
I'd like to know how many people do blind sound tests before making this level of commitment. That is, have a playing friend or the salesperson (if he can play) play several choices with your back turned or your eyes closed and don't tell which one is which until after. See if you can identify which is which or if your sense matches the price tag. IIRC, someone tried a blind sound test here with audio tracks of several higher-end mandolins and the guesses were not much better than random.
Also it's not purely sound quality that determines price, but supply and demand. So you have to consider what % of the price is the premium for high demand over and above the instrument's qualities. If a specific instrument increases in value with time (say from $5K to $8K) you wouldn't argue that its sound quality has magically increased in proportion, right?
Re: How do you justify a high end mandolin? Or do you?
if you buy a new 10k mandolin, walk out the door and try to sell it, you won't get 10k for it. thus, is it really worth it?
1935 Gibson A-1 Wide mandolin
Late 1800's Unbranded German fiddle
Re: How do you justify a high end mandolin? Or do you?
Well, mandolin is a third/fourth instrument for me so I could NOT justify one that expensive. Flute is my major instrument and when I wanted the BEST flute possible, I got a second job waiting tables at a Steak and Ale (after teaching school all day). After four years of waiting tables, I had the money I needed. (It was about $20,000).
Lynn Tillman
Re: How do you justify a high end mandolin? Or do you?
For that kind of money I hope you at least got a scroll
Re: How do you justify a high end mandolin? Or do you?
The answer is that few high-end buyers have actually done lots of blind testing (but they do do testing, nevertheless). And yes, the price of a mandolin is not dictated solely by its sound quality. There are brand/maker reputation, appreciation, condition, rarity, and demand to consider, and these extrinsic factors can absolutely dominate the selling price. (And they certainly do for mandolins costing more than $10K).
But, even while your comments may be true, I think they miss the point. Most players (as opposed to just collectors) will purchase a high-end mandolin in order to have a musical relationship with it. They not only like the mandolin's sound, but also its ergonomics/playability, its feel, its reputation, its provenance -- in fact, nearly every attribute about it. You don't arrive at that kind of personal satisfaction from blind testing alone, which only measures a single component of this complex mixture of traits. Yes, the mandolin's sound counts for a whole lot, but not for everything. In a phrase, you need to fall in love with the whole package! You need to see it, feel it, smell it, know all about it, and more.
As others have already pointed out, when you enjoy such a great musical relationship with your own instrument, you can't wait to take it out of its case and play it. You derive greater satisfaction from every practice session, from every playing session, and from (nearly) every note. And all this can tend to make you a better, more experienced musician. And possibly a happier one, too.
This kind of a love affair goes WAY beyond the rational, of course! It's very personal, and it cannot be justified by the mandolin's sound -- or probably other single attribute -- alone. But it's a wonderful thing to experience, and some folks will pay a small fortune to have it. Or just to try to have it.
Of course, like all other kinds of love, you can also fall out of the relationship. And that's a whole other story...
Last edited by sblock; May-08-2016 at 12:04pm.
Re: How do you justify a high end mandolin? Or do you?
I watched a video I found not long ago of a guy who had (at least one) almost priceless mandolin. He knew every detail about it and vintage mandolins in general. As I am not mentioning his name I can say that he could pull no tone from it whatsoever. I used to go to festivals and there was a fellow on the circuit who played in a band and his "kind of F5" mandolin was so cheap and ugly that it was hard to ignore. His tone and abilities were over and above everyone else around, and I think he enjoyed it even more because he used that axe.
I am presently playing a pawn shop guitar that my woman bought for her daughter for $100 (with a hard case!) before I even met her.
There is no money or circumstance that would ever allow me to part with it, because it pulls the load I hitch to it. In the end, that's all that one can reasonably ask for.
But Amsterdam was always good for grieving
And London never fails to leave me blue
And Paris never was my kinda town
So I walked around with the Ft. Worth Blues
Re: How do you justify a high end mandolin? Or do you?
Not to pry open the can of worms others have opened about quality, but I'd argue that quality has very little to do with any of this. What I'm hearing is that quality is a small part of justifying an expensive purchase. So, 'high-end' may be more accurate. Some of us assume that quality goes with price, I and others would say that's not always true. Now the real can of worms is whether any of us can really assess sound quality accurately. No, none of us do the blind taste test. We can try, I've done it. Play a bunch of them side by side and listen. We all know the exceptional stand outs but will disagree about those also. Ask daryl C., I played two of his side-by-side with one I had for over two hours. That was a pretty solid assessment of those three, but can I really put those into the context of all the others I've played? With all the changes that occurred between and the unique circumstances at each tasting? Not really. A scientific approach is required to assess mandolin quality, for real, but all other approaches are certainly valid to each of us as individuals, but not to some community quality assessment base.
With beer we try to do this through the Beer Judge Certification Program and we actually do fairly blind taste tests to determine which brand is the 'best' in any given beer category. The triangle test is also used by some of us. Have someone put two beers into cups, one into two cups and one into one cup. Half the time it's hard to even put the two same beers together much less tell the differences. There are guys out there who can taste a beer and tell you the ####### exact brand. A lot of us will struggle just identifying the style. And that's the thing about beer assessment, we have to create specific categories first and then compare the beers to those categories. Determining which is best is really just a consensus-based thing and not driven by quality necessarily. We don't train ourselves to do this type of tasting for beer or mandolins, yet we all think we have it nailed down. Certainly I include myself in that mix. I try to take an unbiased approach, but its extremely difficult with mandolins.
It would be cool to generate standardized sound bites and try and identify or at least rank mandolins as a community but that would require some effort.
There are other intangibles, though. The way a mandolin FEELS in my hands, how easy it is to play, how it affects my perception of my own playing - those are important attributes to me. The best guitars and mandolins I've ever played make me FEEL like a better player. That probably isn't consistent for all of us and therefore complicates things very highly.
This is a cool thread, but like someone else said, I'm a bit more all over the place than I was before. I just wanna get my hands on a few and assess for myself. And, again, that's hard to do. But rather than assess quality, I'm looking for that intangible. What I'm trying to do is short-circuit the process and wondering if just having one (several potentially) shipped to me and risking having to pay all those shipping costs is worth it. Probably not but maybe. Taking a day or two off work to go play mandolins is another option that I am weighing and I certainly agree I need to play them first.
I love this site and its' members.
Re: How do you justify a high end mandolin? Or do you?
I do not NEED another mandolin or guitar and short of theft or natural disaster will never need one. My instruments are not expensive but play well and sound good, or I would not have kept them. I do occasionally WANT another. So far I have brought my 2 favorites to compare with whatever I was lusting for at the moment and nothing so far has passed that test in the last 4 years.
Jim Richmond
Re: How do you justify a high end mandolin? Or do you?
great mandos are like great kayaks: buy slightly used, enjoy, sell if you need to for very close to what you paid. either costs almost nothing to own once purchased, (unlike cars, boats, motorcycles etc.) I just acquired a gently used Ellis F5. (the quilty guy on Music Emporium). It is wonderful! makes me want to play my best. I'm not great my any means, but can appreciate a great instrument. If and when I ever sell it, I'm sure I will get very close to what paid for it. so, long term, it's kinda like 'borrowing' a great mandolin.
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