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Thread: Changes in availability of Weber Instruments

  1. #76
    Purveyor of Sunshine sgarrity's Avatar
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    Default Re: Changes in availability of Weber Instruments

    This is what happens when art becomes business. I much prefer individual luthier built mandolins.

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  3. #77
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    Default Re: Changes in availability of Weber Instruments

    Was this some kind of hostile takeover? I had assumed the Webers sold because they felt it was in their best interests to do so.
    Steve

  4. #78

    Default Re: Changes in availability of Weber Instruments

    Without using any unnecessary references ,political or otherwise, let me echo several previous posters and say I'm glad I own an older Weber as well. Not because of what lies in Webers' future but because of what a beautiful instrument it is.
    An instrument that will always be light years ahead of my worthiness as a player! It's similar to my IPhone; capable of a thousand different tasks, but I'm only capable of performing 3 or 4 of them!(but I'm ok with that)

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  6. #79
    Loarcutus of MandoBorg DataNick's Avatar
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    Default Re: Changes in availability of Weber Instruments

    And let me add without using any geo-political, ethnic, spiritual or any other prohibited references otherwise, that I also am the proud owner of a mandolin that several touring pros have dubbed "good'un, really good mandolin, hoss..."; and that this 94' Gibson F5L was built by Bruce Weber & his team in Bozeman, MT. I confirmed this with Bruce at NAMM 2015 in LA, that although Larry Barnwell's signature is on the "Acoustical Engineer" label, it was Bruce & team that built it! I found Mr. Bruce Weber to be a genuine, kind, approachable, good-spirited individual! I wish he & Mrs. Weber only the best.

    Now TOH....the jury's still out in my book....I'll wait & see but my spidey sense tells me...
    1994 Gibson F5L made by Bruce Weber's team


    "Mandolin brands are a guide, not gospel! I don't drink koolaid and that Emperor is naked!"
    "If you wanna get soul Baby, you gots to get the scroll..."
    "I would rather play music anyday for the beggar, the thief, and the fool!"
    "Perfection is not attainable; but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence" Vince Lombardi
    Playing Style: RockMonRoll Desperado Bluegrass Desperado YT Channel

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  8. #80
    Shredded Cheese Authority Emmett Marshall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Changes in availability of Weber Instruments

    Quote Originally Posted by multidon View Post
    And yeah. Yeah, I know this is off topic. I apoligize for that. But don't real conversations have this happen all the time?
    I just ate two grilled Brats and a Honey Crisp apple.

    for you Don....
    Weber F5 Bitteroot Octave - "...romantic and very complicated."
    My instruments professionally maintained by...RSW
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7UmUX68KtE

  9. #81
    Registered User Brett Byers's Avatar
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    Default Re: Changes in availability of Weber Instruments

    There's an awful lot of speculation and misinformation in this thread, but also some pretty insightful speculation as well. I could probably write a book on the history of Weber mandolins, the sale of the company, the transition to Bend, and the direction of the company under TOH ownership, but that is a story to be told by Bruce Weber Sr. (or Jr.), not me.

    In no way do I speak for Bruce Sr., but I can emphatically and confidently say this: Bruce created, nurtured, and maintained one of the truly great American mandolin brands of all time, and that can never be taken away from him, his wife Mary, his son Bruce Jr., or the many dedicated employees who worked under his supervision over the years. His reputation and legacy are sound and without question. His dedication to customer service and the overall customer experience is known throughout the mandolin community.

    Tom Bedell, the sole owner of the instrument division of TOH (Breedlove, Bedell, Weber) is free to make any decision he wants and lead the brands in any direction he sees fit. He paid the money for the companies, he owns them, he leads them. Simple as that.
    I certainly have thoughts and opinions regarding the direction TOH is taking the Weber brand, but those opinions are irrelevant. I left TOH over two years ago to pursue a different path in life. Life goes on. Brands are created, sold, and transformed every day. It's a fact of business.

    I have no doubt that if you order a new Weber you will get an instrument crafted with skill, passion, and extreme attention to detail. Bruce Weber Jr. has ridiculous amounts of experience in all facets of the building process, and he is more than capable of leading the crew in Bend. I would be happy to own a Weber built under his direction.

    Bruce Weber Sr. lives and breathes mandolins, all day, every day. It's simply what he does. There's no one I would trust more to work on my instruments than him. If you have an instrument in need of repair, he's the man to see. I can guarantee he will approach his latest venture with as much passion and dedication as he did during his days at Flatiron, Gibson, Weber, and TOH.

    What is the future of the Weber brand? Who knows. Only time will tell. Until then, play em if you got em!

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  11. #82
    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Changes in availability of Weber Instruments

    From Seg - "It's similar to my IPhone;....". With due respect - it's not ! The makers of the IPhone already had the 'next model' designed & developed with the next batch of ''improvements'',which,if they'd wanted, could have been incorporated into the one you already have. But why should they ??.They want you to buy a new one every year if they can.
    Weber always produced every price tier of their instruments as 'good as they ever could be' from the off !. Unless it was deemed absolutely 'necessary' for any instrument,nothing was ''added on'' & a buyer always got the full deal.
    As a Weber owner,i'd like to add my personal thanks to Bret Byers for his insight into the current situation. Whetever Bruce's latest venture might turn out to be,i'm sure that regardless of which 'brand' of mandolin you play,everybody would wish Bruce all the success he deserves,
    Ivan
    Weber F-5 'Fern'.
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  13. #83
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    Default Re: Changes in availability of Weber Instruments

    A great big thank you from me to Brett for putting things in perspective. Great to have a viewpoint from someone who was on the "inside".

    As stated previously, I own a Bitterroot made under Bruce Sr. and a "post Hippie" Bitterroot made under Bruce Jr. Both are crazy good, and if you forced me to choose just one, I would pick the latter! It's that good.

    Brett also 100 percent confirmed a point I tried to make earlier but I wasn't 100 percent sure of my facts. Now I am. If Tom Bedell is the sole owner of the TOH instrument division, then the company's decisions are ultimately his decisions and with no other shareholders to worry about then, logically, the decisions are designed to benefit him. I am not trying to be inflammatory here, just stating a self evident fact. A set up like this is really capitalism at its most fundamental, in my opinion. Self interest is what keeps our economic machine running smoothly. It has been very interesting for me to study how TOH has changed and developed over the past few years, as regards Breedlove and Bedell as well as Weber. Especially the decisions regarding offshore production. Many Bedell guitar models were made in China but then a couple of years ago that production abruptly ceased and they announced they would concentrate on high end guitars made in USA. Surely there must have been a good reason for that decision, based in economics, but that decision was contrary to the typical trend.

    I will continue to watch TOH as it has become, to me, just an interesting company. In the meantime, though, after all the discussion, and especially due to Brett's post, I would expect the high standards of quality to continue at Weber under Bruce Jr., and if I ever need warranty service, who better to execute it than Bruce Sr.?

    Somebody help me. I said I wouldn't post anymore and then I did anyway. Help! I'm talking and I can't shut up!
    Don

    2016 Weber Custom Bitterroot F
    2011 Weber Bitterroot A
    1974 Martin Style A
    Fender Octave Mandolin c.2004-2008

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  15. #84
    Registered User jefflester's Avatar
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    Default Re: Changes in availability of Weber Instruments

    23 models, 23 pairs of chromosomes - coincidence or ... ?

  16. #85
    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Changes in availability of Weber Instruments

    I suspect that for many others, as for me,Weber as a US based company is based in the birthplace & homeland of the mandolin as we know it today. I can't help but feel that if Weber production was moved to Asia,that they'd become another ''also ran'' Asian producer. I'm not inferring that the quality would suffer - although...... !. I have to admit that if i lived in the US,then a 'US built' mandolin would be my first choice,& maybe prospective buyers in the US would also deem that to be of importance. Actually,having read many posts to that effect,i know they would. Weber (or TOH ) could rule themselves out of the main game if they're not careful - just my thoughts,
    Ivan
    Weber F-5 'Fern'.
    Lebeda F-5 "Special".
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  17. #86
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    Default Re: Changes in availability of Weber Instruments

    I live in America and all the stuff I really want is made in Europe. So it goes.
    Steve

  18. #87
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    Default Re: Changes in availability of Weber Instruments

    I love TOH. Now I can buy a mandolin and trendy flip flops for me wife all at one website!
    I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. -Kurt Vonnegut

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    Default Re: Changes in availability of Weber Instruments

    Don't forget there are plenty of small USA builders that don't cost a fortune. Silverangel is one, Summit is another. A lot of them are really expensive but not all. If the baseline for comparison is the cost of a new Weber then I think a lot of small builders would be comparable and would be equal or higher quality.

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  21. #89
    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Changes in availability of Weber Instruments

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Joe View Post
    I don't find 23 models very limiting. That's a lot of product to keep moving. Every business has a responsibility to its shareholders to make as much profit as they can. The market will help determine that. There really is no such thing as corporate greed in companies like TOH. They make a limited product for a limited market and it costs a LOT of money to do that. If they can reduce the models that are not profitable to ensure they can stay in production, then that is what they must do. We would love to think they think about us, the individual mandolin player, but they cannot. They have to do what is best for the business so they can be there for us in the future.
    I can understand that from a business angle, but there is one aspect of this that still bothers me. Especially from the "there for us in the future" angle.

    Weber is the only company that makes a wide range of longer-scale mandolin family instruments, and now they're continuing to scale back the entry-level, more affordable models. The Sage has been gone for a while now, but if someone wanted a high quality, carved archtop OM we could still recommend the Gallatin for people on a tight budget. Now you have to get a Bitteroot. The price for a new Weber OM just went up by a lot. That's assuming I'm reading this right, and please correct me if I'm wrong.

    And again, if I'm reading this right, if you want a mandola or mandocello you can't even get it in a Bitteroot. It has to be one of the fancy, very expensive models. As someone who enjoys playing and hearing these longer scale instruments, it's disappointing to see them removing the more affordable longer-scale instruments from the lineup. It's not the end of the world, you can still get a nice Weber OM. You're just going to have to pay a lot more now. And yeah... I'm sure it's just business economics. Doesn't stop me from being disappointed.

    One more thing, and maybe this is just being a curmudgeon and doesn't bother anyone else, but I don't like the way the TOH/Weber web site now uses the phrase "Octave Mando" everywhere, instead of "Octave Mandolin." I can understand it with drop-down menus to save space, but they're also using it in page titles where there is plenty of room. And yes, we use that shorthand here on the Cafe. I do it all the time. However if I'm playing my Yellowstone F OM at a gig or a pub session, and someone asks "what is that?", I never call it an "Octave Mando." It's an Octave Mandolin.

    It just seems a bit too cutesy and hip on a product web site. If you're selling an Octave Mandolin for thousands of dollars, then call it an Octave Mandolin. That's what Weber used to do, on its old Sound To Earth web site.
    Last edited by foldedpath; May-03-2016 at 9:23am.

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  23. #90
    Registered User jetsedgwick's Avatar
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    Default Re: Changes in availability of Weber Instruments

    I have two Webers and I hope that don't ever go to China ala Breedlove.
    Weber Black Ice F
    Gretsch Vintage F Oval hole
    Washburn A, Oval hole Mandola
    Weber Black Ice F Octave Mandolin

  24. #91
    Shredded Cheese Authority Emmett Marshall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Changes in availability of Weber Instruments

    Quote Originally Posted by foldedpath View Post
    I never call it an "Octave Mando." It's an Octave Mandolin.
    I actually think it's an astute observation. I totally "get" this. I've come to appreciate what my Octave Mandolin "is". While I don't "humanize" my instruments, it is a fine instrument (in my opinion) made by a great guy, and it sounds and feels incredible to me. To refer to it as my "mando" doesn't give it the distinction of what it really is. "Mando," as used in the place and context you mentioned, makes it sound like a cheap and disposable "toy" to me. While it may seem like such a trivial thing to even mention such as you did, my first thought was, "And this is how the dilution begins."

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  26. #92
    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Changes in availability of Weber Instruments

    Emmett - That's what i'd refer to as 'trivialisation',a bit like calling a Steinway Concert Grande Piano a 'Joanna',& more than a bit demeaning to the folk who produced it - IMHO,
    Ivan
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  28. #93
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    Default Re: Changes in availability of Weber Instruments

    This mando/mandolin debate is pretty interesting. First, I happen to agree with liking "mandolin" more, but it does show TOH trying to figure out how to make a traditional instrument more hip. There's that unpredictable balance between alienating old customers and trying to attract new ones. I'm assuming they're going after the Sarah Jarosz wannabes, which is sound thinking. But how many are there? Another acoustic guitar/mandolin shop went out of business in New England a few months ago (Maple Leaf Music in Brattleboro, Vt, went from a storefront to the owner's living room on a by-appointment basis, with tiny stock), and we all know of shops that have disappeared, downsized, gone electric, or whatever. So marketing of acoustic instruments is an issue, and there will be some ill-fated attempts, but I'd rather have those than some sort of stodgy denial that results in fewer stores and fewer builders in this country. Just look back at the bell-bottom and flower-power festooned ads from Martin back in the late Jurassic folk era.

    The combination storefront/lifestyle retailer may be what saves a lot of shops. There are a number of boutique stores of various types that have expanded just to keep their passion alive. Vintage bicycle shops have turned coffee shop/light apparel/bike shops. Maybe music stores need to serve some food, offer some boutiquey audio equipment, and depending on licensing laws, craft brews.

    So maybe mando/mandolin is just a taste of things to come..

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  30. #94
    Middle-Aged Old-Timer Tobin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Changes in availability of Weber Instruments

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlieshafer View Post
    This mando/mandolin debate is pretty interesting. First, I happen to agree with liking "mandolin" more, but it does show TOH trying to figure out how to make a traditional instrument more hip.
    Ugh. For starters, the mandolin is already hip, and has been for over a century. Gibson did that during the mandolin craze of the early 20th century, and never had to resort to foolish sounding nicknames for its product (although they did capitalize on the "tater bug" name to marginalize their competition, LOL).

    What TOH is doing is trying to do is bring the mandolin to the same level of "hipness" as the ukulele. Which would just be embarrassing. The mandolin is, and has always been, a more serious instrument that demands a lot of dedication and practice to sound good. It's not a toy, and it's not as easy for people to dinker around with like a ukulele. If they're trying to drive the next small instrument craze, I'm not sure the mandolin is going to work like they think. I mean, we mandolin players do love it, but the great masses of people who they would be appealing to are probably not going to take to the mandolin as quickly as the ukulele. The callus-building process alone would probably drive most of them off.

    Another acoustic guitar/mandolin shop went out of business in New England a few months ago (Maple Leaf Music in Brattleboro, Vt, went from a storefront to the owner's living room on a by-appointment basis, with tiny stock), and we all know of shops that have disappeared, downsized, gone electric, or whatever. So marketing of acoustic instruments is an issue, and there will be some ill-fated attempts, but I'd rather have those than some sort of stodgy denial that results in fewer stores and fewer builders in this country. Just look back at the bell-bottom and flower-power festooned ads from Martin back in the late Jurassic folk era.

    The combination storefront/lifestyle retailer may be what saves a lot of shops. There are a number of boutique stores of various types that have expanded just to keep their passion alive. Vintage bicycle shops have turned coffee shop/light apparel/bike shops. Maybe music stores need to serve some food, offer some boutiquey audio equipment, and depending on licensing laws, craft brews.

    So maybe mando/mandolin is just a taste of things to come..
    Hmm. I do get what you're saying, but I tend to think that the death of mom & pop instrument shops has less to do with instrument popularity and more to do with how people buy. Acoustic instruments are still very popular; it's just that people prefer to buy from cheap internet sources. The mandolin is more popular than it has been in almost a century, with more builders and choices than ever before. The mandolin world doesn't need TOH to keep it alive. And people, for whatever reason, just don't buy instruments in stores as much these days.

    I do agree that music shops would do well to expand their appeal by offering food, coffee, even craft brews. That would be pretty cool, actually. But I don't think the opposite approach would work that well (i.e. apparel/lifestyle shops starting to sell instruments). Maybe a few yuppie-types with more money than brains would buy an instrument when they stop in to get their latest hipster gear, but I don't see that as a viable path to huge sales. The price of a mandolin just isn't conducive to impulse buys like that, unless it's a low-end hunk of junk. I could be wrong, though.

  31. #95
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    Default Re: Changes in availability of Weber Instruments

    Funny the "off topic" police haven't chimed in. Now we're talking about lifestyle stores and Mando versus Mandolin. The off topic polic were all over me like a duck on a June bug and at least I was still talking about Weber!

    I love threads like this because they are just like virtual versions of a real conversation. Real conversations branch off into different directions all the time.

    I also love the idea of music stores serving beer. I think Charlie has nailed it. What a concept! I don't know about other parts of the county, but in these here parts, serving beer is a guaranteed successful business model!

    There is a local bar which posted this sign in front of their business in honor of Valentine's Day. The ultimate love poem. "Roses are red. Violets are blue. We have beer".

    I mean, what more is there to say?
    Don

    2016 Weber Custom Bitterroot F
    2011 Weber Bitterroot A
    1974 Martin Style A
    Fender Octave Mandolin c.2004-2008

  32. #96

    Default Re: Changes in availability of Weber Instruments

    Marketing changes and stays with the times, or companies fade away. Boomers are still a big market (Larger than Gen-X), but most of them already own nice instruments. Sure they will buy a few more, but the market needs to begin shifting to Millennials. Gen-X does not have the numbers of population, and took the brunt of the recession. There is some market for Gen-X, but the Marketing for Millennials will overlap to an extent. Get-Z is not old enough to be a target for things like mandolins. Any company that does not figure how to reach Millennials, will see a steady decline resulting in their demise. It is already happening.

    I don't see this as such a bad thing. The Millennials are bringing acoustic music back, craft breweries, great coffee, etc.. Many things that I love. Granted, we will lose some of the traditional aspects in the process, but just imagine if this resurgence was led by Gen-X (my generation). We would have the "tap chord" instead of the chop and new models of mandolin would be fluorescent pink and green. Ovation would be resurrected and become the number one selling mandolin. I would rather see it become a little hip and pretentious, but for the most part keep the tradition intact.

    'Millennials have surpassed Baby Boomers as the nation’s largest living generation, according to population estimates released this month by the U.S. Census Bureau. Millennials, whom we define as those ages 18-34 in 2015, now number 75.4 million, surpassing the 74.9 million Baby Boomers (ages 51-69). And Generation X (ages 35-50 in 2015) is projected to pass the Boomers in population by 2028."
    Robert Fear
    http://www.folkmusician.com

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    " - Pete Seeger

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  34. #97
    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Changes in availability of Weber Instruments

    Quote Originally Posted by multidon View Post
    I also love the idea of music stores serving beer. I think Charlie has nailed it. What a concept! I don't know about other parts of the county, but in these here parts, serving beer is a guaranteed successful business model!
    Here in Washington State, they could now legally offer more than just beer. Offering vape pens and herbal refills could be a whole new way to encourage customers to buy musical instruments.

    "Wow, doesn't this mandolin sound FANTASTIC!!!"

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  36. #98

    Default Re: Changes in availability of Weber Instruments

    Each distinct SKU comes with a cost... maintenance and marketing. If you take the SKU's that have the least amount of sales, and trim them from your catalogue, it often improves overall margin.

    Yes, it's a business decision. Whether it's a 4 man shop, or a giant conglomerate, focusing your offerings on customer demand is not a bad thing... it means you're listening to your customer.

  37. #99
    Middle-Aged Old-Timer Tobin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Changes in availability of Weber Instruments

    Quote Originally Posted by Folkmusician.com View Post
    I don't see this as such a bad thing. The Millennials are bringing acoustic music back, craft breweries, great coffee, etc.. Many things that I love. Granted, we will lose some of the traditional aspects in the process, but just imagine if this resurgence was led by Gen-X (my generation). We would have the "tap chord" instead of the chop and new models of mandolin would be fluorescent pink and green. Ovation would be resurrected and become the number one selling mandolin. I would rather see it become a little hip and pretentious, but for the most part keep the tradition intact.

    'Millennials have surpassed Baby Boomers as the nation’s largest living generation, according to population estimates released this month by the U.S. Census Bureau. Millennials, whom we define as those ages 18-34 in 2015, now number 75.4 million, surpassing the 74.9 million Baby Boomers (ages 51-69). And Generation X (ages 35-50 in 2015) is projected to pass the Boomers in population by 2028."
    Yikes! I'm smack-dab in the middle of Gen-X (I turn 42 in a few months). But if fluorescent pink and green mandolins would be the hallmark of my generation, I'd have to stop admitting it in public. *shudder*

  38. #100

    Default Re: Changes in availability of Weber Instruments

    And lets not forget the double locking tremolo! I am right there with you Tobin (43 next month).
    Robert Fear
    http://www.folkmusician.com

    "Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don't.
    " - Pete Seeger

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