Understanding Modes

[bmartuch]

I am having a hard time understanding modes.

The C Scale is:
C D E F G A B C

If I were to start the scale from D:
D E F G A B C D

I read that was the Dorian scale. Is it D Dorian because it starts with D or is it C Dorian because it's the C scale"

What if I went:
F G A B C D E F

Any help would be appreciated.

[DSDarr]

In your first example, this would be called D Dorian. Your second example would be called F Lydian.

There's a lot of information on modes available in music theory books and also on the web. http://www.guitar-chords.org.uk/modes/modes.html came up quickly when I searched...

[UsuallyPickin]

Hit up Wikipedia they have a great article on Modes. R/

[bigskygirl]

Wikipedia does have a great write up...this is how I remember the order...you could make up your own little phrase as well...

I Don't Play Loud Music After Lunch

[bingoccc]

Wikipedia does have a great write up...this is how I remember the order...you could make up your own little phrase as well...

I Don't Play Loud Music After Lunch

For me it's " I don't play like my Aunt Lucy"

[David L]

The most important thing to remember about modes is what intervals they have and what they sound like, not what major scale they happen to be related to. Dorian is like natural minor except with a major 6 note. Mixolydian is like major, but with a lowered 7.

[JeffD]

The most important thing to remember about modes is what intervals they have and what they sound like, not what major scale they happen to be related to. Dorian is like natural minor except with a major 6 note. Mixolydian is like major, but with a lowered 7.

I agree. It seems to me entirely besides the point that you can generate the different modes by starting on a different note of the C major scale.

That Wiki article is good. Identifying the intervals is the important part. For example, C mixolydian starts and ends on C, using the mixolydian intervals.

[mandocrucian]

Modes Made Easy

[DougC]

The middle eastern modes have many other names. In klezmer I use freygish and mishabarech.

But as others have said it is more about playing the stuff than thinking about them.

[David L]

Another way of looking at modes is their order from "brightest" or "most major" to "darkest" or "most minor". Start with a lydian scale: tonic, major 2, major 3, augmented 4, perfect 5, major 6, major 7. Lower the 4 and you get a major (ionian) scale. From there, lower the 7 and you get mixolydian. Then lower the 3 and you get dorian. Then lower the 6 and you get natural minor (aeolian). Lower the 2 and you get phrygian: tonic, minor 2, minor 3, perfect 4, perfect 5, minor 6, minor 7. If you then lower the 5, you get locrian, which is not really used much because of the diminished tonic chord. If you continue and lower the tonic (the only note left), you are back to a lydian scale, one half-step lower than the original.

[T.D.Nydn]

You learn everything you can, then eventually you absorb it all , until ultimately the fretboard is just one long chromatic scale that you pull and manipulate any desired notes from at will...

[Toni Schula]

The middle eastern modes have many other names. In klezmer I use freygish and mishabarech.

But as others have said it is more about playing the stuff than thinking about them.

But in my humble understanding these klezmer modes differ from the "I don't play like my Aunt Lucy" (The other phrase would be a lie) modes in that you can't just play the 'white keys' on the piano and 'just start' from a different tonic note. To get at least one of the twelve possible sets of modes. Or in other words these eastern modes are not diatonic modes. Not even a sub set like the pentatonic scales.

When I play some klezmer with my sister I try to play the melody that she plays on clarinette and enjoy the exotic sound. Maybe I should consider doing some thinking now.

As for the diatoic modes I try to remember and visualise where the halfsteps are and the full steps fall into their places naturally. E.g. in first position, when the tonic is an open string, for ionian it is fret 4/5 on one string and again frets 4/5 on the next higher string. While in mixolydian it's frets 4/5 and 2/3 on the next higher string. And then of course in this visualised pattern the halfsteps always come in pairs on adjacent strings.

[jshane]

You learn everything you can, then eventually you absorb it all , until ultimately the fretboard is just one long chromatic scale that you pull and manipulate any desired notes from at will...

Love it.

[Beanzy]

I agree. It seems to me entirely besides the point that you can generate the different modes by starting on a different note of the C major scale.

It's useful when starting out as the intervals automatically fall in the right place.
However once you've got the differences then that's no longer needed.

[David Lewis]

Sydney Conservatorium students might know'i don't play like mr Arthur latter. '

[ombudsman]

I agree. It seems to me entirely besides the point that you can generate the different modes by starting on a different note of the C major scale.

Modes are definitely sounds and we shouldn't lose sight of that. But the reason their relationship to a major scale, or another mode even if no major is involved, is also foundational information because there are many ways they help us understand and relate to harmony.

A common example of this is when musicians are confused by relative major and minor, and the scales that work over each. If you think of it in terms of modes, it makes perfect sense that the natural minor scale based on the root (aeolian) sounds right over a chords that are in a typical relative minor key, but not for songs that start on a ii chord (of which there are many), and this quickly points you to the implied major scale which is going to be the parent of at least some of the chords used in the song. It answers questions like why "So What" is notated in the key of C, despite the first chord being a D minor, and not the key of D minor (as the relative of F major).

It's a gateway into how chords are selected to use in songs and how functional harmony works.

[DougC]

Somehow it bothers me to see this kind of talk (even though it is true) in relation to the term 'mode'. I think of a mode in relation to a type of traditional music. For example Dorian. Right away Irish jigs and reels come to mind. Pentatonic. Chinese for me every time. The context and the tonality come first and then all of the thinking comes afterwards.
One has to start somewhere and for me it is, where did this tune come from? This requires as much understanding of the setting as it's musical construction.

[foldedpath]

Somehow it bothers me to see this kind of talk (even though it is true) in relation to the term 'mode'. I think of a mode in relation to a type of traditional music. For example Dorian. Right away Irish jigs and reels come to mind. Pentatonic. Chinese for me every time. The context and the tonality come first and then all of the thinking comes afterwards.
One has to start somewhere and for me it is, where did this tune come from? This requires as much understanding of the setting as it's musical construction.

Right, with traditional music in many genres, you tend to think of modes from the inside out, rather than the outside in with classical Western harmony ideas.

A knowledge of music theory can help, but it can also block understanding if it's applied too rigidly to genres that don't always follow the classical Western conventions. There are gapped scales in many Irish trad tunes that are intentionally ambiguous in their major/minor feel. There are tunes that constantly play games with pivot notes that shift the feel around, like the very common use of both C's and C#'s in a tune. There are even tunes that shift entire key centers back and forth like "Kid on the Mountain."

With some of this stuff, especially the tunes with gapped scales, I just give up on trying to understand it intellectually with theory. I just play the darned tune and enjoy it.


All of this is mostly irrelevant to a Jazz or Bluegrass player, where the music usually sticks to more conventional Western harmony. But you'll eventually run into it if you're learning to play "fiddle tunes."

Here's a page on modes and modal substitutions from the Irish trad perspective by Chris Smith, that may be helpful for those interested in trad modes:

http://coyotebanjo.com/music-38.html

[ombudsman]

Right, with traditional music in many genres, you tend to think of modes from the inside out, rather than the outside in with classical Western harmony ideas.

A knowledge of music theory can help, but it can also block understanding if it's applied too rigidly to genres that don't always follow the classical Western conventions. There are gapped scales in many Irish trad tunes that are intentionally ambiguous in their major/minor feel. There are tunes that constantly play games with pivot notes that shift the feel around, like the very common use of both C's and C#'s in a tune. There are even tunes that shift entire key centers back and forth like "Kid on the Mountain."

With some of this stuff, especially the tunes with gapped scales, I just give up on trying to understand it intellectually with theory. I just play the darned tune and enjoy it.

It sounds to me like you understand it pretty well with theory.

Many musicians prefer to describe what they do in other ways because of connotations of the term.

All of this is mostly irrelevant to a Jazz or Bluegrass player, where the music usually sticks to more conventional Western harmony. But you'll eventually run into it if you're learning to play "fiddle tunes."

Lots of jazz songs, including old show tunes and standards, use multiple keys and non functional (non diatonic) harmony. Some of it gets into all kinds of other more modern or unusual harmony.

[DougC]

Right, with traditional music in many genres, you tend to think of modes from the inside out, rather than the outside in with classical Western harmony ideas.

A knowledge of music theory can help, but it can also block understanding if it's applied too rigidly to genres that don't always follow the classical Western conventions. There are gapped scales in many Irish trad tunes that are intentionally ambiguous in their major/minor feel. There are tunes that constantly play games with pivot notes that shift the feel around, like the very common use of both C's and C#'s in a tune. There are even tunes that shift entire key centers back and forth like "Kid on the Mountain."

With some of this stuff, especially the tunes with gapped scales, I just give up on trying to understand it intellectually with theory. I just play the darned tune and enjoy it.

Playing the melody in modal music is one thing. Providing accompaniment is the challenge. A simple bass line can add a chord note and really screw up some nice things going on in the melody. This is the important part of knowing 'theory'. It also helps in making friends if you apply 'correct' notes / chords to the music.

[Werner Jaekel]

Love it.

[David L]

Lots of jazz songs, including old show tunes and standards, use multiple keys and non functional (non diatonic) harmony. Some of it gets into all kinds of other more modern or unusual harmony.

Non-diatonic harmony doesn't necessarily mean non-functional. Secondary dominants and the circle of fifths are functional, but non-diatonic.

[ombudsman]

Non-diatonic harmony doesn't necessarily mean non-functional. Secondary dominants and the circle of fifths are functional, but non-diatonic.

Ok, fine, but they both commonly occur in jazz

[bmartuch]

Everything I read about modes shows that 7th chords should be used. If you were playing a melody in A Dorian, what chords would you use?

[Steve L]

Everything I read about modes shows that 7th chords should be used. If you were playing a melody in A Dorian, what chords would you use?

No, they work the same with triads or what the kids call "power chords" (i.e. all roots and 5ths). What chords you'd use would depend on the melody.