Very curious

[Mr5150]

Am new to mandolining. At it for almost five months. Coming along very well. Been a musician for over 40 years. Flute, Sax. Went to a jam last Satuday to listen and learn. The organizers knew me and asked if brought my mandolin. Said no, (had no intention to as I felt not ready),but had my flute. They insisted I play, so yea. Went well. Did a few solos and much back up. Gospel and Bluegrass.

My question is: while it seemed to work well, does a flute fit? I had fun and got positive feedback. Just curious.

[foldedpath]

My $.02... Every acoustic jam is different, so if everyone is having fun with what you're playing on flute, then go for it!

It might not fly at a hardcore Bluegrass jam, but there are many different versions of "acoustic jam" at the local level, and they're not all hardcore Bluegrass. If they're including modern Gospel music, then that's already opening wider doors in the repertoire. I could see a flute fitting in there easily.

FWIW, I'm coming at it from the other direction -- played guitar for almost 40 years, then mandolin, and now I'm struggling to get my chops together on wooden conical bore keyless flute, so I can play the Irish trad music I'm interested in. I play that music on mandolin too, but the flute is a whole other realm of sustained tone and ornaments, something I can't do on mandolin. I'm not giving up the mandolin, but it's interesting to see a genre like this from both sides of the sustained vs. plucked spectrum.

Anyway, I'm sure you're aware that Flute and Sax aren't exactly traditional instruments in Bluegrass. On the other hand, if the local jam is a "mixed acoustic" jam and not hardcore Bluegrass, including Folk and Gospel music, then I think there is plenty of potential there for a good flute player.

[colorado_al]

Sounds pretty awesome to me!
You should check out http://matteakle.com
Great flute player and has been playing with David Grisman for decades.
The David Grisman Quintet is mostly jazz, but they do play some bluegrass. And Matt has played on many other Dawg albums, including Garcia & Grisman. Also plays with Mike Marshall sometimes.
Good chance you could see him live. I think he lives in the bay area.

[Paul Busman]

If the session participants asked you to play, I'd say you're fine there. I've been to some sessions (Irish) where only "real" Irish instruments were welcome. At others,I've seen oboes, clarinets,hammered dulcimers, and the like. Personally, I like the variety.
Old time sessions are usually pretty welcoming to all.

[Denny Gies]

We have a monthly jam where a flute (and mandolin) player attends and the flute fits in well. We play a lot of bluegrass, John Prine, Neil Young and Jessie Winchester. It's fun.

[Mr5150]

FWIW, I'm coming at it from the other direction -- played guitar for almost 40 years, then mandolin, and now I'm struggling to get my chops together on wooden conical bore keyless flute, so I can play the Irish trad music I'm interested in. I play that music on mandolin too, but the flute is a whole other realm of sustained tone and ornaments, something I can't do on mandolin. I'm not giving up the mandolin, but it's interesting to see a genre like this from both sides of the sustained vs. plucked spectrum.

Thanks for your post. I find myself playing the mandolin in a sense like the flute and sax in that I find the key and then pick out the melody or harmony. Blues on a mandolin, yes. It is all music. Blues, I know the style and it helps me learn the instrument. Chords are new to me. Weekly lessons are teaching that aspect. I know that chords are something I need to know to do support and background stuff.

You've picked a worthy route flute wise. Difficult tho. I've played keyless flutes. You may want to consider picking up a "silver" flute keys and all. Much easier to play and for your information, one can make it sound like a pipe or a whistle without too much trouble. IMO the silver flute would speed up your skill on the wooden keyless plus you would learn the tunes and style faster.

Brands to consider are Yamaha, Gemeinhardt or Armstrong.

[FLATROCK HILL]

My question is: while it seemed to work well, does a flute fit?

Funny you should ask.

Just a few days ago, a lady showed up at our little jam-night and unpacked a flute. First time this has happened as far as I know. I'm pretty sure I wasn't the only one who was a bit skeptical about how this might work out. I mean a flute player sitting in with a bunch of guitar-strumming good-ol'-boys... really?

After she took the break in Merle's 'Silver Wings', we were a room full of believers! I was ashamed for ever doubting.

[foldedpath]

You've picked a worthy route flute wise. Difficult tho. I've played keyless flutes. You may want to consider picking up a "silver" flute keys and all. Much easier to play and for your information, one can make it sound like a pipe or a whistle without too much trouble. IMO the silver flute would speed up your skill on the wooden keyless plus you would learn the tunes and style faster.

Brands to consider are Yamaha, Gemeinhardt or Armstrong.

Thanks for the info, but there is something of a traditionalist bias among Irish trad flute players towards 19th Century pre-Boehm designs. There are one or two well-known players who do use Boehm silver flutes like Joanie Madden and Sarah Allen, but the vast majority in this genre use wooden conical bore flutes, with or without keys. The playing techniques are different too -- no diaphragm vibrato, and with few exceptions, tonguing isn't used for articulation. Instead, you're using things like glottal stops and fingered ornamentation like cuts, rolls, and crans (derived from the pipes) for expression.

The back story -- and this may be somewhat apocryphal -- is that when the Boehm flute was developed and took the Classical world by storm, suddenly a bunch of wooden conical bore pre-Boehm concert flutes entered the used marketplace at very low prices towards the end of the 19th Century. They were snapped up by rural Irish trad players who didn't need a fully chromatic flute. In some cases the keys were even pulled off, because so much of the repertoire is in D, G, and related modes. Those flutes, along with the playing styles derived from the pipes, established what an "Irish flute" should sound like.

When you buy an "Irish flute" today, like the blackwood Windward D flute I play, it's basically a replica of a 19th Century Pratten or Rudall & Rose flute. I'd like one with keys, but they're expensive, and I need to prove to myself that it's worth the cost by getting better with this keyless model. I can cross-finger a decent C natural, but I do struggle sometimes to half-hole a G# or F natural... those are trickier. One of these days I'll get something like a 6-key Windward or equivalent, if I can justify it.

Short version... this Irish trad stuff is just a whole 'nother world.

P.S. apologies for the digression from mandolin-centric topics, but some of those here who play Irish trad may be interested in the background for other instruments in the tradition.

[Mr5150]

Thanks for the info, but there is something of a traditionalist bias among Irish trad flute players towards 19th Century pre-Boehm designs. There are one or two well-known players who do use Boehm silver flutes like Joanie Madden and Sarah Allen, but the vast majority in this genre use wooden conical bore flutes, with or without keys. The playing techniques are different too -- no diaphragm vibrato, and with few exceptions, tonguing isn't used for articulation. Instead, you're using things like glottal stops and fingered ornamentation like cuts, rolls, and crans (derived from the pipes) for expression.

The back story -- and this may be somewhat apocryphal -- is that when the Boehm flute was developed and took the Classical world by storm, suddenly a bunch of wooden conical bore pre-Boehm concert flutes entered the used marketplace at very low prices towards the end of the 19th Century. They were snapped up by rural Irish trad players who didn't need a fully chromatic flute. In some cases the keys were even pulled off, because so much of the repertoire is in D, G, and related modes. Those flutes, along with the playing styles derived from the pipes, established what an "Irish flute" should sound like.

When you buy an "Irish flute" today, like the blackwood Windward D flute I play, it's basically a replica of a 19th Century Pratten or Rudall & Rose flute. I'd like one with keys, buut they're expensive, and I need to prove to myself that it's worth the cost by getting better with this keyless model. I can cross-finger a decent C natural, but I do struggle sometimes to half-hole a G# or F natural... those are trickier. One of these days I'll get something like a 6-key Windward or equivalent, if I can justify it.

Short version... this Irish trad stuff is just a whole 'nother world.

P.S. apologies for the digression from mandolin-centric topics, but some of those here who play Irish trad may be interested in the background for other instruments in the tradition.

Thanks for the info. You clearly know your stuff! Most interesting and makes sense. Enjoy and the half hole stuff will come easy with a bit of practice and getting familiar with the instrument. I am getting to the point of reading tabs without looking at my fingers. Similar concept.

[Mr5150]

Funny you should ask.

Just a few days ago, a lady showed up at our little jam-night and unpacked a flute. First time this has happened as far as I know. I'm pretty sure I wasn't the only one who was a bit skeptical about how this might work out. I mean a flute player sitting in with a bunch of guitar-strumming good-ol'-boys... really?

After she took the break in Merle's 'Silver Wings', we were a room full of believers! I was ashamed for ever doubting.

Yep, you just never know.

[colorado_al]

We sometimes have a sax player who comes to our jams. Always livens things up! Also occasional trumpet.

[foldedpath]

Thanks for the info. You clearly know your stuff! Most interesting and makes sense. Enjoy and the half hole stuff will come easy with a bit of practice and getting familiar with the instrument. I am getting to the point of reading tabs without looking at my fingers. Similar concept.

Practice is where it's at, for sure. I just need to do more of it!

Tab can be a good thing when you're just figuring out your way around the mandolin, but I'd encourage you to switch to standard sheet music as soon as you can, if you're learning off printed music. If you've played flute and sax for years then you're probably already familiar with it. A mandolin is just a fretted fiddle as far as sheet music is concerned, so there is that whole worldwide wealth of music out there in standard notation. Tab is very limited by comparison.

For some inspiration, listen to the David Grisman stuff mentioned up-thread. And here's a clip from a trio featuring two bouzoukis (long scale mandolins, basically) and one of my favorite flute players Nuala Kennedy, showing what can be done in a Folk/Irish trad setting. John Doyle is known more as an Irish guitar player, but he's playing 'a guitar-body zouk here:




Here's another clip of Nuala with her own band, playing a cool piece in odd time signature, with Iain Macleod on mandolin:



See, you might want to come over to the Dark Side with the Irish and World Music stuff and forget all that Bluegrass...

[colorado_al]

Check out this jam on Shady Grove by DGQ 08/28/2009. Matt Eakle takes the 1st solo from 0:42-1:50 and just smokes it!

Now if anybody ever tells you that flute doesn't fit in a bluegrass jam, you can just laugh knowingly, and play on!

[Mr5150]

Tab can be a good thing when you're just figuring out your way around the mandolin, but I'd encourage you to switch to standard sheet music as soon as you can, if you're learning off printed music. If you've played flute and sax for years then you're probably already familiar with it. A mandolin is just a fretted fiddle as far as sheet music is concerned, so there is that whole worldwide wealth of music out there in standard notation. Tab is very limited by comparison.

About a month ago I started doing what you suggested-I figured I needed to know what notes I was playing to understand the mandolin. I would play the flute at church and bring home the sheet music and play the same stuff on the mandolin. My teacher said "oh, you want to do things the hard way!" (Notes vs Tabs)

[Randi Gormley]

Ha! as someone who moved from flute to mandolin, I'd think moving from notation to notation was doing things the easy way! But we all learn (and teach) what's most comfortable and makes the most sense to us.

[Tom C]

As I heard Grisman once say.....A flute is a string instrument.... Just very fat and short with holes in it.

[Mr5150]

Ha! as someone who moved from flute to mandolin, I'd think moving from notation to notation was doing things the easy way! But we all learn (and teach) what's most comfortable and makes the most sense to us.

You would think so, but my note reading skills are fairly basic. Church music tends to be on a basic level note-wise. Plus I already know 80% of the songs. I tried a college orchestra for a semester and was totally lost half the time. I mainly play by ear as I did at that jam. Playing songs by notation on the mandolin is really helping me to understand the instrument.

My teacher had me learn by tabs-something new to me. Tabs made learning the songs easy, but once I got a tune in my head, I no longer used the tab sheet for that particular song. I am getting the point where I can pick tunes out if I know the melody in my head.

Next month, I will bring my mandolin and my flute to the jam.


And I just found this on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TecII8eX8Ek

[wooq]

My cousin plays a mean bluegrass accordion. Arguably a more bluegrass-y instrument than flute (on account of Sally Ann Forrester). But anyway, it matters a lot more that your jam invited you to play than it does that the instrument you had was essential to the genres they play in.