Small band, small venue equipment

[Drew Egerton]

Hello everyone,

I am in the beginning stages of forming a local bluegrass band and currently it is myself on mandolin, a banjo player and a guitar player. We may have a bass part time at this point.

What I am looking for is recommendations on sound equipment for that set up with small venues such as vineyards, BBQ restaurants, etc.

I have one MXL 990 mic and am open to either using it or buying something else. We are starting from scratch so we need everything.

I'm sure there are probably threads on this already but in a quick search I didn't find a one stop solution, but I was in a hurry. Links to other threads welcome.

Thanks for the help.

Edit to say that the budget is as cheap and we can get decent quality for. We don't want junk, but we are playing local here so no big touring band budget.

[nickster60]

I personally like the the Carvin AG amps. I have played everything you can imagine throught it. There are a few other guys who also use them on the cafe.

[gtani7]

i remember some good threads on this, but tough to search for (i googled "small pa" on this site):

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...-quot-speakers

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...wered-speakers

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...-Small-PA-idea

[multidon]

I really like the Yamaha Stagepas systems. I have the Stagepas 400i and it would be almost perfect for you. You only carry the two speakers, one has storage for cables and the other has storage for the mixer. You can pole mount them or they can just sit. You can plug in 4 mikes and there are several inputs that can be used for pick ups too. The only down side is the phantom power is only 30v and your mic requires 48. That is a limiting factor but I think a dynamic mic is better for live anyway. If you think 400 watts is too much for a small venue it isn't. I moved up to this from a 100 watt unit and the effective volume level they can both achieve is about the same in casual listening but the more powerful Yamaha achieves that volume at a lower setting, therefore more headroom and a better quality sound. The two speakers, cables, and mixer costs about 699; not the cheapest solution but worth every penny IMHO. NFI but I just think it's a great unit. Not for you if you want to use condensers live of course. You really need that 48v to give you the best mic selection. But I tried condenser miss for live and did not like them. They are great in the studio, but for live give me a Shure 58.

Hope this helps.

[Charlieshafer]

I think there are a lot of good power speaker/portable P.A. systems that will work very well in indoor applications, and you've already had a couple of good suggestions on those. What you'll need is a variety of microphones, though. They don't need to be expensive by any means, but certain venues will be great for the old-school stand around the single large condenser microphone thing, and others will require more direct individual small diaphragm "pencil" microphones (I love the Avantones for this, currently $150 a pop), and if it's a loud bar, maybe clip-ons for the instruments and good old SM58's or an equivalent for vocals. For the most natural sound, the more "air" or distance you get from the microphone (within reason, more than 18" or so and you'll pick up too much room noise) the more natural the instruments will sound. So clip-ons will sound a little less "airy" than a microphone that you're a foot or so away from, and clip-ons in turn will sound better than a pickup.

With a variety of venues, it's the microphones that matter. I run sound in a fixed system room, and even then, with different styles of playing and singing, I'm always changing microphones to try to optimize the musician's natural sound. Oh, and practice as much as possible without monitors, so hopefully you can avoid them with a small group, as they're a sound-quality killer if not really used right.

[pops1]

If you are thinking SM58 don't think about it for instruments, they are great for vocals, but they are best close. They will work for an instrument, but every inch away from the mic is a much lower volume. They don't feed back easily because you need to nearly touch them. Been using them for decades and they work well for loud environments. A small condenser mic will not necessarily need 48 volts phantom, I have some that work on 9 volts and are good for instruments. They are Carvins. There is a wealth of systems out there these days.

[UsuallyPickin]

Most small systems have limited mic inputs . Look into a small mixing board and then running it into a Fishman SA220 Solo Performance System....... Mics matter and AKG , Shure , and several others make good units but they are all use specific and will do better in some tasks than others so do your research. I bought a Fender Passport system before the Fishman came out and it has served me well in small venues. I use a variety of mics depending on who is playing what...... Luck .. R/

[mandroid]

Y'Ha Stage pass .. Removable Powered Mixer stows in 1 speaker,
cables stow in the Other .

Models in various Power levels

[jefflester]

Presumably including vocals? Not mentioned in the original post, but has potential of doubling number of mixer inputs needed.

[Mandobart]

I personally like the the Carvin AG amps. I have played everything you can imagine throught it. There are a few other guys who also use them on the cafe.

I play through a Carvin AG300 and it is great. Works very well on everything from fidlle, mando, vocals and bass. 48 volt phantom, pole or floor mount, built in effects, advertised 250 watts with a second cabinet. The only problem is there are only 3 channels. Two of the channels have 1/4" (with a high impedance setting) and XLR inputs. You can (I have) plug an instrument into the 1/4" and a mic into the XLR on the same channel, but then they will have the same volume and effects unless you have some external pedals.

Mine works great for a solo or duo gig, indoors or out.

[almeriastrings]

I think it very much depends on your precise needs in terms of number and type of inputs (how many mics, active DI's? Do you need to run condenser mics that need full 48V?, are you running a bass through it? etc.), plus how sophisticated you need the EQ and FX to be, also on the size of venue and audience, and they you have to factor in your budget and any transport restrictions. The good news on that is there are now some really super-compact but still very capable speakers and mixers out there these days and more are appearing all the time.

Start by working out the maximum number and type of inputs you will need, then add at least a couple of spare ones, because at some point you'll suddenly find you need them (guest performers turn up, or something similar). Generally, for maximum flexibility and also for security (redundancy in case of failures) some active speakers plus a separate mixer is a good plan.

[Spencer]

I really like the Yamaha Stagepas systems.

I have the Stagepas 600 system. I looked at the 400, and decided to go with the 600. Some of the factors were 3 band equalizers instead of two, more inputs, and a bit more power. It has echo as well, but we don't use it, and you can also use monitors with it, they are not included, of course. We have used it with 7 mikes in a 4 piece bluegrass band, with good results. It works fine with condenser mikes on the two channels with phantom power. If you need more phantom power, then you need some more hardware and for some mikes you may need a pre amp. It has good sound for the money, and is pretty portable, like the 400. You can grow with it for quite a while, and as long as you are a small group it is ok. We maxed out with the 7 mikes mentioned above, which was an outdoor arrangement with about 100 people. We are quite happy with ours.

I think it is worth looking at. Spencer

[Drew Egerton]

Thanks everyone. This is a ton of info that I will have to spend some time digging through!
Thank you all for the suggestions.

[Freddyfingers]

Even though I recently sold my Bose compact I am still a big fan. Used around 600. Even without their tone March mixer, a small 6 channel mixer will do wonders with it. Very portable. I am not sure how far you need to project back and how wide, that will make a difference. I wound up going with a set of schertlers. A jam 200 new and a 150 used. For me and my wife , two mikes and a guitar it fills a lot of sound and is the bees knees for acoustic instruments. If I play a larger or outdoor facility where folks are spread out I connect to to the other jam and have a mini pa. With a mixer I could add four vocals and all the instruments.

If the loca stores do not have enough small systems for you to try, go to as many live music events similar to what you are doing and see what they use. Ask questions and judge based upon what you hear and like and don't. I came to the conclusion that good sound is subjective. For every positive review there is one knocking it. Some folks dislike the Bose acoustic sound others race. Same with the schertler. Although for guitar and acoustic instruments I have not read a bad review. Vocals wise there are a few

[Steve Ostrander]

Remember that condenser mics like the MXL990 require phantom power. Most modern PAs have that feature, but some older equipment does not.

[multidon]

Since you need everything you probably should do some research on live sound, including the microphones and hardware you will need. It can add up quickly.

My band is not a bluegrass band. It is a folk band. We have guitar, dulcimers, bass, and a multi instrumentalist, me, playing mandolin, harp, hammered dulcimer, and other stuff.

As I said the heart of our system is the Yamaha Stagepas 400i. The dulcimer players use stick on contact pick ups that go to DI boxes and then to the board. The guitar player has a sound hole pickup with preamp that goes directly into the board. We run three dymamic mikes, two for vocals and one for instruments with no pickup. The bass uses its own amp and does not go through the board. The PA has 8 things going in all together and that little Yamaha takes it all in with no problem. But if we ran all mikes there would be a problem, only 4 inputs take a microphone. So too small if you want to run more than 4 mikes. You have to consider what kind of input devices you want to use and get a system that will handle all that.

The condenser versus dynamic microphone debate is highly significant and needs to be answered. The old school thought is condensers are for the studio, dynamics are for live. But condensers are becoming more popular for live situations. But they are tricky. They require phantom power. Ones designed for studio work, like your MXL 990, often will not work at all if they don't get 48 volts. That is a problem with the Yamaha which only has 30v. Others will work with a wide range of voltages and they would be fine. But a lot of people only think about voltage and don't consider how many amps are drawn. It is possible that if you have 7 or 8 condensers plugged in there may not be enough amperage to cover all that even if the voltage is right. I am old school and I like dynamics for live. They're cheap. They're sturdy. You can beat them to death and they still work. And they're plug and play with no worries about voltage, amperes, or any of that stuff.

In my opinion, pole mounted speakers work way better live than just sitting them on the ground. So add in the cost of 2 folding speaker stands. Some mic stands too. I like folding tripod stands with booms. You will want to purchase bags to carry the stands in too. Really. Extra money but you will thank me for bringing that up, believe me. Carrying stands without a bag is no picnic. And do not cheap out on cables. Poor quality cables have a tendency to just stop working for no apparent reason.

With the PA, speaker stands, mic stands, microphones, cables, and carrying bags, we have probably a thousand into it. In my opinion, it would be difficult to get everything you truly need for less than that. Unless, as you say, you buy junk.

Also, someone should mention that the Fender Passport systems are popular for an application like yours too. I considered those but I thought the Yamaha was easier to transport because you carry one speaker at a time instead of both. And JBL has a new series of potable PA which they obviously designed to compete with the Passport and Stagepas. Peavey also makes all in one portable systems, the Escort series. Thought about those too, and they are different from the others because they include speaker stands. But those stands look way too light and not up to the job. When it comes to picking a stand sturdy enough to hold a PA speaker, you want to err on the side of caution.

[Mark Seale]

Keeping in mind you can find really good quality, lightly used gear with a little searching, I'd look for a good small mixer like the Allen & Heath Zed10 and a powered speaker like the QSC k10. If you look at retail, that's a little pricey, but you get excellent quality, a significant amount of control on the sound, and plenty of inputs to handle what you're sending it.

[pops1]

You can always get a separate phantom power supply, I use one on several systems when I need 48 volts as mine is only 30 volts or doesn't have phantom.

[almeriastrings]

Worth noting that quite a few high-end live condenser mics are now back-electret designs that run very happily from 11-52V.

I use the AT AE5400 on vocals frequently, and the AT AE5100 on instruments, and both of these have a very wide tolerance in that regard. Most modern mics don't draw much current, incidentally, though some older designs did... a properly designed mixer should handle the specified number without difficulty.

I second what Mark says about the QSC's. Superb speakers. Well worth the extra over lesser brands.

[Drew Egerton]

Wow, this is all going to take a lot of time to sort through, but thanks again everyone.

I do actually have a phantom power box that I got when I first got the MXL 990 and it does 48V.
I think the short term plan for me is to see if I can borrow enough other pieces to just test out how that mic sounds for us, and then from there determine what else we might need or to go in a completely different direction.

I have always liked the setups similar to Del McCoury where they are basically around one mic but then also have another couple of mics for additional sound and to spread out a bit.

Our current config. is myself, a banjo player and a guitar player. We all sing to varying degrees of success.
Ultimately we'd prefer to add at least one more instrument like bass and fiddle....but players are proving more difficult to come by so far.

[Jim B]

When we play in churches with my band and they don't have a PA I bring a small PA consisting of:
2 Kustom PA-50 powered speakers ($79.95 each @ guitar center)
1 Behringer 1202FX mixer (got for $40 on eBay)
Cables/stands from Monoprice.com (a great source for cables)
I already had 2 mics and our guitar/harmonica also plays in a western swing band so he's got mics

Total invested ~$375

[avaldes]

I think it very much depends on your precise needs in terms of number and type of inputs (how many mics, active DI's? Do you need to run condenser mics that need full 48V?

So I figure you would know the answer to this, and my apologies if it is off on a slight tangent, but how critical is it to match the nominal phantom power of a preamp with the spec on a condenser mic? Will it fry the mic (that has not happened to me. In spite of the voltage, the current is quite small)? Will performance be suboptimal? I have not noticed that. But I have connected 24v phantom power preamps to mics that expect 48 v, and not had a problem. I am guessing the 30v from the stagepass would be OK with the MXL mic.

[multidon]

So I figure you would know the answer to this, and my apologies if it is off on a slight tangent, but how critical is it to match the nominal phantom power of a preamp with the spec on a condenser mic? Will it fry the mic (that has not happened to me. In spite of the voltage, the current is quite small)? Will performance be suboptimal? I have not noticed that. But I have connected 24v phantom power preamps to mics that expect 48 v, and not had a problem. I am guessing the 30v from the stagepass would be OK with the MXL mic.

My experience is limited, but I do know there are condenser mics designed for 48v (and 48v only), and those designed to operate on just about any voltage from 9 up to 52. The 48v only ones subdivide into 3 groups: ones that won't work at all outside their operating parameters, ones that will work with no ill effects, and those that will work with reduced performance of some sort (frequency response, sensitivity, etc.) As there is no consistent standard regarding phantom power, the only way to know for sure how critical the mismatch is would be to try it and see.

Regarding those 48v specific miss, please note they usually have a realistic operation variance of plus or minus 4 volts from ideal (44 -52v).

[pops1]

I have had two large diaphragm mic's that require 48 volts and neither worked well on less, they fed back and didn't have as much power. With electricity ohms law is in effect E=IR since R is the same if you lower E (volts) you automatically raise I (current). Most things are damaged by not being able to handle enough current so while it may work it could shorted it's life or damage it at some point. Same effect when using a long extension cord for power tools or PA, the voltage drops because of the resistance of the cord and then the current raises and burns out the tools or PA. If not right away, later.

[almeriastrings]

My experience is limited, but I do know there are condenser mics designed for 48v (and 48v only), and those designed to operate on just about any voltage from 9 up to 52. The 48v only ones subdivide into 3 groups: ones that won't work at all outside their operating parameters, ones that will work with no ill effects, and those that will work with reduced performance of some sort (frequency response, sensitivity, etc.) As there is no consistent standard regarding phantom power, the only way to know for sure how critical the mismatch is would be to try it and see.

Matches my findings too. I found some that are specified for +48v worked and sounded subjectively OK on as little as 18V (a Neumann KM184) and other ostensibly similar mics (an SE Electronics SE-1A) refused to work at all on the same input (a Headway EDB-2 blender preamp).

If it is an electret design (pre polarized fixed charge backplate) the chances of success on lower voltages are much greater. It is the 'true' condensers that tend to be by far the fussiest.

Current draw on most of these mics is miniscule, typically 3 to 4mA or even less. They nearly all use a miniature FET head amp, and (in the case of an electret) these can often run for 2,000 hours or more from a single AA battery. Some really good self-powered electet mics are available for situations where no 'traditional' phantom power is available or where you prefer not to use it (field recording, etc.): for example, the excellent Shure SM94, the Audio Technica MB4K and the Rode M3 and NT3. These are all very good "live" mics, too, by the way.