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Thread: Zoerner - Man or myth? Trash or treasure?

  1. #1

    Question Zoerner - Man or myth? Trash or treasure?

    Trying to get info on a Zoerner Bowlback Mandolin circa 1896(?). The internet has nothing and the few shops & collectors I have emailed haven't replied. I could only find one mention on here and it is short. Help!
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  2. #2
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Zoerner - Man or myth? Trash or treasure?

    Unfortunately very few bowlbacks are valued at high prices. They are generally known brand names by known builders. Mugwumps has this person listed as active pre-1896 in Philadelphia. That date may or may not be true and this person may or may not have actually built this. You'll note in this mention of him that the image is dated 1910. Many people had mandolins built for them by larger companies so they could label and sell them. The stamp on the back of the headstock is interesting but not all telling. It's not in very good shape. Bowlbacks from this era in decent shape regularly fail to sell on eBay. Generally you would expect to see more surviving instruments from a well known builder. The "grade" of a bowlback is generally revealed by the number of staves in the bowl. More is better, less is cheaper.

    We have a few resident bowl heads here that might have some other images or catalog pages.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

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  4. #3

    Default Re: Zoerner - Man or myth? Trash or treasure?

    I don't know Zoerner, but old bowlbacks are one of life's great riddles -- everything tells you they should be worth money -- they are cool looking, old, historic, made from good materials, etc. -- but somehow they fall through the cracks. I put them in that category of being too cool too throw away, not worth anything to resell, and not worth the time or money to repair and use -- I guess that makes them a cool wallhanger -- but I have too many wallhangers, already! Looks to be in poor condition on top of everything else. Mike is right, I ran an old bowback for 5 plus years on eBay, hoping that one of the world's 7.4 Billion people would want to pay me $300 for it -- nope, no takers out there..............

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  6. #4
    Mandolin tragic Graham McDonald's Avatar
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    Default Re: Zoerner - Man or myth? Trash or treasure?

    I had found a mention of Zoerner as a guitar and mandolin builder in Philadelphia in the 1890s. Carl Holzapfel worked for him after he had arrived from Germany in 1891, but I was unable to find out anything more about Zoerner. Fred Oster in Philadelphia has an extensive knowledge about instrument builders in that part of the US and it might be useful to get in contact with him.

    Cheers

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  8. #5
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Zoerner - Man or myth? Trash or treasure?

    Here's a Zoerner guitar from the Smithsonian National Museum of American History collection. The page mentions "Zoerner is listed in the Philadelphia city directory as a musical instrument maker from 1896-1988* at 4314 Third Street. Around 1897, Zoerner joined M.J. Betz formed the Concord Zither Co. at the same address."

    Concord Zither Co. shows up in turn-of-20th-century music trade directories. Looks like a small-time builder with a brief period of activity.

    *I'd guess this is a typo in the description; should be "1898" rather than "1988." Zoerner and Concord Zither are in the Mugwumps Index of American Fretted Musical Instrument Makers with "1896-98" dating.
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  10. #6
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Zoerner - Man or myth? Trash or treasure?

    Yeah, I would guess that was a typo on the date. If the date on the picture Jim Garber posted in an earlier thread is correct someone was still trying to sell his stuff in 1910. He was either still building (or someone was using the same name) or there was a backlog of his instruments. Unfortunately none of this changes the value of the OP's instrument.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

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  12. #7

    Default Re: Zoerner - Man or myth? Trash or treasure?

    13 staves but yes, it is "fragile"

  13. #8

    Default Re: Zoerner - Man or myth? Trash or treasure?

    I emailed Fred Oster today. Actually got his name from another collector I found. Thanks. I will post update if he has anything more to add.

  14. #9
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Zoerner - Man or myth? Trash or treasure?

    First, I agree with Mike as well as others: I would say that this Zoerner is in bad shape and is a lower end model so I would not expect that it was worth putting much money into it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Mando View Post
    they are cool looking, old, historic, made from good materials, etc. -- but somehow they fall through the cracks.
    Yes, and this Zoerner has plenty of cracks to fall through.

    As for origin and history, I would say off the top of my head that Zoerner had some sort of arrangement with Weymann. That scratchplate is the same as Weymann bowlbacks I have seen. Either Zoerner made it for Weymann or vice versa. I would guess the latter since Weymann was a maker.

    Here is one similar in scratchplate and headstock shape with Weymann label.

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    Another Philadelphia maker possible is George Bauer.

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    It is possible that Weymann made these mandolins in this period for both Bauer and Zoerner or verse vice-ah.

    Here is info from mugwumps.com listing of American makers:

    Bauer, George, Philadelphia, PA 1894-1911

    Weymann, Harry W. Philadelphia, PA
    Weymann & Son, H.A. Philadelphia, PA 1864-1940s

    Zoerner, Armin Philadelphia, PA pre 1896
    Zoerner & Betz Philadelphia, PA pre 1896
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    Last edited by Jim Garber; Mar-30-2016 at 4:47pm.
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  16. #10

    Default Re: Zoerner - Man or myth? Trash or treasure?

    Here is the response from Fred Oster:

    <Fred's answer deleted by posters request.>

    Thanks for the feedback y'all! Looks like it will be a wall-hanging at dad's new house

    Laurie
    Last edited by MikeEdgerton; Apr-01-2016 at 11:32am.

  17. #11

    Default Re: Zoerner - Man or myth? Trash or treasure?

    Mike,
    Do you know how I can remove one of my posts from this thread? I would like to remove the last post I made - quoting a company - but I can't figure out how to edit or remove it. Any help would be great. Thanks!

  18. #12
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Zoerner - Man or myth? Trash or treasure?

    Quote Originally Posted by teamtandy View Post
    Mike,
    Do you know how I can remove one of my posts from this thread? I would like to remove the last post I made - quoting a company - but I can't figure out how to edit or remove it. Any help would be great. Thanks!
    It has been removed.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

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