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Thread: Electronic Music - It Has No Soul?

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    Shredded Cheese Authority Emmett Marshall's Avatar
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    Default Electronic Music - It Has No Soul?

    I'm wanting to hear different perspectives. I've got a friend who has invested many thousands of dollars in all kinds of gizmos. He's got boxes with lights and buttons all over the place, plus a number of keyboards, (can't play keyboard) hundreds of software addons and plugins, and blah blah.

    Well, maybe I'm just a dinosaur, and even though a lot of the sounds he creates with all that stuff do sound pretty cool; when I listen, I feel like I'm hearing Star Trek or Star Wars - and not the theme songs either. The stuff just doesn't do much for me. He keeps hinting that he wants me to play him some tracks on my mandolin so he has stuff to mess with, but I won't do it because I don't want my original stuff being trifled with.

    We have this ongoing debate about electronic vs. acoustic. I keep telling him that any monkey can push buttons and very little talent or skill is required. He fires back telling me that creativity and talent are in the mind and not the hands. Then I'll hook up my microphone, my amp, my vocal harmony box, and I feel like a complete hypocrite.

    Have I really become a close-minded acoustic snob over the years? I mean, I love plenty of hard rock like Zeppelin, and even a few Emerson, Lake, & Palmer songs (RIP). It's all this spacey, trilling, Theramin kinda stuff that I cannot seem to appreciate. Of course, I like to make pancakes from scratch, and I'll bet he just buys "mix" from the store.

    I'd really like to know how other acoustic players feel about this stuff today. I don't want to create any controversy here, but am I alone? Do I need to "get with the program" and take a more current music appreciation class?
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    Newbie Seeking Clues tangleweeds's Avatar
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    Default Re: Electronic Music - It Has No Soul?

    I have a hard time listening to music that has an electronic rhythm section. There's something about the microseconds variability a live drummer can deliver which add a whole 'nother layer to what the rhythm section is saying about the music.

    I'm appreciating acoustic music more and more as I get older. There are much more variations of timbre, which again add another layer to the listening experience.
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    Default Re: Electronic Music - It Has No Soul?

    Two different people, two different opinions. Stay true to yourself and respect his right to the same.

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    Default Re: Electronic Music - It Has No Soul?

    For me it really goes back to whether the music is about the person playing it or the reaction of person listening to it and how those two factors play off each other. If the music is perceived as conveying certain atmosphere and awakening particular emotions or responses in the listener/generating a particular affect (term used by early music boffins), then it has succeeded on one level. However for someone like you to respond you need something else to bring about the reaction. Possibly you need to feel the connection and interaction directly with the musician, maybe you need the sense of spontaneity and maybe for some they need the knowledge that it could all go wrong, the jeopardy factor, before they can fully engage emotionally. Whether the composer can programme that yet I'm not too sure, but there is for me a sense of dissatisfaction if I know I'm only listening to it once it is safe and exactly how the composer wanted it with no room for performance error or reliance on live skills.
    Interestingly I have found I can do that when I engage with a recording, because I allow myself to suspend the knowledge that it is a recording and will always play back the same. I seem to be able to use empathy to engage with that recorded moment.

    I think for me I'm not bothered if there's electronic sounds involved, I don't tend to get put off by that, but if it's just triggering sequences I feel a bit detached and don't engage with it very much. However if someone records loops and plays along while triggering those I'm usually fascinated and really impressed with their creativity/timing etc. It doesn't seem matter if I'm hearing highly processed versions of whatever instrument they used as long as the performance is with loops I hear and see recorded there and then.

    The more I study baroque music the more I have begun to understand how important the listener is in the process of performance and how the artful performer has to play to elicit those emotions and reactions in the listener.
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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Electronic Music - It Has No Soul?

    The best electronic music today is digitally sampled acoustic instruments. But they still sound kind of technological, because they always sound the same. For example, this stuff - impressive at first, but tell me you made it through all of 2 hours.

    I like to add just a little bit of electronic background to my arrangements, now and then, but that's all there is to it: background.
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    Default Re: Electronic Music - It Has No Soul?

    I have several recordings done in the fairly early days of ''Electronic' music ie. Moog Synthesizer. Possiblythe most famous one,& certainly one that sold 'lots' of copies of the original LP,is ''Switched on Bach'' by Wendy (previously Walter) Carlos. The Japanese musician,Isao Tomita,followed closely with ''Snowfalkes are Dancing'' - Moog renditions of music by Claude Debbusy. He followed that recording up with several others,all of which received wide acclaim.
    For me - the quality of the music & whether its' musically satisfying or not,is down to the 'musician'. I was so taken with the Carlos renditionof Bach's ''Brandenberg Concerto No.3'',that i sought out & bought the 'real one'.Thus began my Classical music & Opera collection.
    Done well,i feel that 'Electronic' music can be very satisfying & i don't get it confused with the 'real' stuff,i accept it for what it is. One thing i've enjoyed in recent months,are the ''Animusic'' videos,many of which can be found on YouTube. They're all 100% Electronic,superbly done & extremely clever. As for 'Electronic' music in general,Les Paul embraced the Electronic side of things pretty early on in his career,& invented & developed much of it.
    Accept it for what it is,a musical entity ini t's own right, & enjoy it. I love to experiment producing my own weird sounds using my Zoom sound effects processor & my Elec.guitar. They're almost as weird as the sounds i get from my mandolin.
    Ultimately,it's a matter of personal choice yet again. If you like it fine,if you don't,don't listen to it, however,i find this Moog rendition of Debussy's ''Claire de Lune'' very enjoyable - nothing not to like if you accept it for what it is,
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    Shredded Cheese Authority Emmett Marshall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Electronic Music - It Has No Soul?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beanzy View Post
    For me it really goes back to whether the music is about the person playing it or the reaction of person listening to it and how those two factors play off each other.
    I think you're bringing some clarity into this for me. I'm thinking about what I "connect with" and "why". I appreciate and connect with talent, skill, creativity, emotion, and music as a form of communication. I come from the world of horns (saxophone) and now strings also. As far back as I can remember, I can listen to a person play as close to technically perfect as anyone can get, but the music can still be dead to me. Not trying to diminish anyone's skills, but those people fall into a "technician" category to me - as opposed to an "artist" category because the skill overrides the message and the emotion. It's usually never the song itself, but always what the artist delivers (or fails to deliver) that makes it or breaks it for me on a piece of music.

    Translating that over to electronics, It seems so "dry" to me. Something is "missing." Not in all cases, but in like 98% of cases it does seem "technical." It like the messenger (artist) is somewhat "removed" or "distant." It's like the musician, if there is one, is hidden way behind a computer somewhere and that there is so much less of a connection than I would have if someone was playing a guitar, a real drum, or whatever. This is where my brain shuts down and I fail to understand myself on this. It doesn't matter if it's live or recorded either. I am moved, inspired, etc by recorded music as well. I spend many hours listening with headphones. (Denon 5000s with full Lawton mods btw). My "issue" (if I have one) has more to do with how the music is generated, but this is a gray area as well since studio music is often very heavily processed. Why doesn't that bother me? I can identify talent, skill, and emotion in a recording....so what's the deal?

    PS: Just to clarify guys: I don't "hate" electronic music. It's more like I can't get myself to a place where I can "appreciate" it. It's lacking (to me) somehow. As for my friend: It's the nature of our relationship that we deride one another about something at least once a day.
    Last edited by Emmett Marshall; Mar-24-2016 at 2:53am.
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    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Electronic Music - It Has No Soul?

    Hi Emmett - Are you a 'night owl or what ?. I understand what you mean exactly. I have similar problems with some music. I simply find it un-listenable - so,i take my own advice & don't listen to it. Re.Moog Synthesizers - yes,they are Electronic,but the music is produced via a keyboard - so,the player should be able to inject as much 'expression' into what they're playing as on any other type of keyboard. However- i suspect that the 'response' of an Electronic device,isn't as subtle as that of a purely acoustic device,therefor,some of the 'expression' that the musician might intend,might not come across too well,
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    Default Re: Electronic Music - It Has No Soul?

    I have a hard time listening to music that has an electronic rhythm section.
    You might give a listen to the early albums of "They might be giants". AFAIK, drums and bass were programmed. But the mix with acoustic instruments, great vocals and inspired songwriting made for some of the most emotionally moving musical moments, at least for my taste.

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    Shredded Cheese Authority Emmett Marshall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Electronic Music - It Has No Soul?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan Kelsall View Post
    Hi Emmett - Are you a 'night owl or what ?. I understand what you mean exactly.
    The nature of my lifestyle doesn't lend itself to me being able to stay on "day shift" for very long. I'm relieved that you understand what I mean. I was afraid this question was going to get me pelted with virtual tomatoes. I wish I had the luxury of just not listening to it. My buddy is always sticking his iPhone in front of my face and saying, "Hey, Emmett....listen to what I came up with last night!" I can't just say, "Get that thing out of my face." because I know that he probably spent hours coming up with the track, and as much as I tease him and argue with him, I truly don't want to discourage him or hurt his feelings either. So, I'm stuck with it for now and will force myself to be "tolerant" no matter what it takes. I just wish I could understand myself better.
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    Registered User Hendrik Ahrend's Avatar
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    Default Re: Electronic Music - It Has No Soul?

    No plastic flowers for my wife, and no pizza with cheese flavour for me, please.

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    Shredded Cheese Authority Emmett Marshall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertram Henze View Post
    - impressive at first, but tell me you made it through all of 2 hours.
    I listened for 10 seconds. Then I fast forwarded to the middle, listened for 5 seconds, and cut it off. It was dead to me - seriously. I did watch the anti-smoking commercial at the beginning in it's entirety. I haven't quit yet though.
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    Default Re: Electronic Music - It Has No Soul?

    In the late 60's or early70's I had an uncle that played Chet Atkins style guitar and of course I heard a lot of Chet Atkins and Mearl Travis music. I thought not bad but a shame it's not being played on a "real" guitar. Years later I heard a band play some of the early electronic music, the guy on guitar would strike a note, turn to the controls and make that note last forever, while doing all sort of stuff to it. I remarked he's not a musician he's an electrician. I still don't appreciate either, make my music acoustic,if that makes me an acoustic snob so be it, I've been one all my life

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    Gummy Bears and Scotch BrianWilliam's Avatar
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    Default Re: Electronic Music - It Has No Soul?


    No soul? Roy disagrees.

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    Default Re: Electronic Music - It Has No Soul?

    Depends what sort of music it is, as always. There is good electronic music, and there is bad. I am very privileged to be friends with Lou Rhodes the lead singer of the trip hop band “Lamb”, a group I have followed since they debut album nearly 20 years ago. To me their music has plenty of soul, even though their beats are programmed, and samples are used throughout the music (listen to Gorecki below):



    Bands like Lamb, Massive Attack and Portishead are some of my favourite bands from the 90’s, and mix together really solid song writing, and of course real instruments, with programmed beats.

    Their are plenty of styles of music I just have never quite ‘got, but can appreciate the musicianship: Motown for instance, Country and Western etc. If you actually knew how musical and technically proficient some of these electronic musicians are on their “instruments” (be it a sampler, a synth, or a ‘DJ’ style programme like Ableton Live) you may be able to at least appreciate the amount of work that has gone in to honing their skill.

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    Default Re: Electronic Music - It Has No Soul?

    The electric guitar is one of the very most expressive and emotional instruments ever invented. The emotion you can get from an electric certainly can blow away any acoustic guitar. But to me ,there is a limit on far to go. You can spend a lot of money on electronics and then the time it takes to learn it, to me, I would spend the money on a fine acoustic and spend the time practicing. My nephew just spent $4000. On a sophisticated electronic setup, he's a computer tech and it still took him 6 months to start to figure it out. I am a dedicated mandolin player, but I'm getting older, and when my fingers finally disintegrate and explode from the mandolin, I will go back to the electric guitar.

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    Default Re: Electronic Music - It Has No Soul?

    As a long time and unabashed acoustic snob I do appreciate amplification (slightly off subject) as a way to simply reach more listeners, to the extent that it is important to do so. However, the goal is always to get as close to an acoustic sound as possible. The simple resonate sound produced by wood, wire and voice is all my musical soul seems to need. The most sublime participatory musical experiences in my memory have been as a part of a circle of musicians wailing away, perhaps late at night with a campfire nearby, where all pretense fades away and simple, pure musical joy happens.

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    Default Re: Electronic Music - It Has No Soul?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emmett Marshall View Post
    I'm wanting to hear different perspectives....
    It could be that you just don't like that particular style that your friend plays, regardless of how the sound is generated.

    If he was using purely acoustic techniques to make sounds that *he* liked, it still might not be something that you'd find appealing.

    Artistic differences I guess?

    Or maybe, if he's just starting out or something, maybe he isn't very good yet?

    Anyway, I know what you mean about kinda mental-blocks hindering acceptance of music, when I was much much younger I dismissed an otherwise-great bluegrass album (think it was Earl Scruggs, can't remember for sure) because they'd went modern & put DRUMS (oh the horror!) as backing! Nowadays I wouldn't care, they can use whatever instruments they want as long as it sounds good, but back then I just couldn't accept it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Emmett Marshall View Post
    Have I really become a close-minded acoustic snob over the years? ... I like to make pancakes from scratch, and I'll bet he just buys "mix" from the store.
    Well I started out as an "acoustic snob" although I wasn't aware of it at the time, I just thought that anyone who played electric was some sort of phony, guess I absorbed too much of my parents' viewpoints who were opposed to electricity in music.

    But I didn't stop there, I ramped it up a few notches...

    I used to think that an instrument that was *not* entirely homemade by the musician or close family, that it was not 'real' & thus somehow artificial/factory/plastic & less worthy of serious consideration.

    I got over that idea when I realized I would have to build my own steel mill to build my own steel strings, or else start disassembling hogs (or whatever animal) to make gut strings... no thanks, too messy, costly, & needlessly extreme...

    Sometimes store-bought ready-made products *are* useful in creating music. Whether involving circuit boards or not.

    Nowadays I have no problem extending this concept to *other* items used to create music, including some electrical components.

    Some thoughts on my own music trip:

    Where to draw the line, if I buy storebought strings & factory-made metal geared tuning pegs & other musical supplies, does that make the music less 'authentic' than if I'd created everything myself from scratch? I used to think that it did.

    If I use a digital tuner, or indeed a factory-made tuning fork, does that invalidate the music created with that technologically-tuned instrument?

    Nowadays I prefer convenience. I've paid my dues, already did the phase where I used only wooden-peg tuners on all my instruments (no gears, no metal parts), they're serviceable if fitted properly, but... why?? Just for principle or some idealogy? Same with acoustic vs electric & electronic... nowadays, if I like the sound, I play/listen to it.

    However, that said, there are some sounds that just aren't all that appealing, a personal preference thing.

    Oddly nowadays, most of the sounds I dislike are acoustic, it's too dry & dull & uninteresting unless playing in a concrete stairwell or a large tiled bathroom to get a little reverb.

    As to electronic novelty sounds, some of them are quite fascinating & interesting to listen to for a little while even though I wouldn't want a steady dose of them. Kinda like opera or something, a little bit goes a long ways.

    I play mostly electric nowadays, I prefer the sound. For what it's worth - if it matters - I don't edit anything after I've played it, it's all real-time except for multi-track but even there each track is unedited, I don't 'correct' mistakes, if I can't play each track somewhat acceptably in real time, then I keep practicing until I can.

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    Registered User almeriastrings's Avatar
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    Default Re: Electronic Music - It Has No Soul?

    Well, it ain't Blue Grass... but, I think it does have 'soul' and certainly is capable of inducing certain moods, feelings... and, as in classic science fiction... tension...



    There's more than one kind of music, and there's good and bad in all of them. I can never hear this one without thinking back to the time I was a kid and hid behind the sofa when the Cybermen appeared!
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    Default Re: Electronic Music - It Has No Soul?

    it takes all types to make this world.


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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Electronic Music - It Has No Soul?

    Quote Originally Posted by almeriastrings View Post
    ...capable of inducing certain moods, feelings... and, as in classic science fiction... tension...
    There are so many ways to do that in acoustic music as well...

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    Default Re: Electronic Music - It Has No Soul?

    Instruments are just the tools to creativity, like pigment in it's media is a tool for the painter. I think a safer statement may be along the lines of electronica doesn't touch your soul rather than it having none. Clearly, it connects with many listeners and performers.

    I can easily listen to Mike Seeger play fretless banjo and Depeche Mode or Tangerine Dream or sampled rap music from Public Enemy, to Tuvan Throat Singing in the same sitting. Each will speak to me. That's not me saying your opinion isn't valid. We just each connect to the music differently.

    My ears/brain don't process opera well. It becomes a mush so it's not a music form I connect with. Find what moves you. Be open to listen to other things and if they work, great, if not keep on listening to other stuff.

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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Electronic Music - It Has No Soul?

    I am a very "tune-centric" listener. I don't care much for music that is all mood - like a soundtrack to a movie playing in someone else's head. Tell me a musical story. I don't mean with lyrics, but with a real tune I can get my head around.

    To my thinking, "electronic" is just another kind of sound - and in the right hands I have no doubt can move me as much as anything else, or bore me to tears as much as Paul Winters (for example) did in the 80s.

    It doesn't have to be acoustic to be good - it has to be good to be good.
    Having something to say is highly over rated.

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    Default Re: Electronic Music - It Has No Soul?

    It seems to me the artist chooses the window on their soul, with the hands the conduit. Hard for me to listen to George Harrison's playing and not think "pure soul." Another example, I've been listening to Mark Knopfler lately and watching him live on U-Tube, solo, with Emmy Lou, Dire Straights, etc. Amazing communication of music and soul, seemingly not even thinking. Just two examples. One may not like their styles, but for me it's hard not to think "soul."
    I've heard overplayed acoustic and electric music, maybe situations where "taste" and "soul" collide.
    At a basic level our nerves are electric, so to me electrons are not the differentiators, it's what drives them.

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    Default Re: Electronic Music - It Has No Soul?

    Electrons ain't no part of nuthin'.

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