Right-hand technique

[Miltown]

So I'm still pretty much a beginner (been playing since the end of last summer), and while I've definitely progressed, I've started to realize that my biggest weakness right now is my right hand.

Which leads me to my question: how would you describe what you consider to be "good" right-hand technique? For awhile, I was definitely leading with my elbow, which I've tried to get away from, and then last week I saw Tim O'Brien play in Chicago, and I was blown away by the looseness--for lack of a better word--of his wrist while picking.

Anyway, how can I try to somewhat approximate that loose wrist of O'Brien? Should I sort of be twisting my wrist? (I think I've seen this described as like the movement of using a key to unlock a door.) Or is there some other way to think about how I should be moving my wrist?

Any advice appreciated.

[gtani7]

(hello from somebody who grew up in 53211 !)

Have you seen the instructional vids from Thile, Sam Bush and others. Thile's in particular goes into how to hold and fluidly use the pick, I dunno if Sam Bush's did, it's been a while. I also watched The BG Mandolin of Bill Monroe, Vol 1, that was great, tho not a detailed analysis.

I think it differs for pinky planters and heel of hand planters somewhat. There's breaking at the wrist joint vs/plus forewarm rotation for playing single note lines, and using the elbow joint for hard strumming, and i think some people change the pick hold for strumming. The recent "cross picking" Video thread has some great analysis, it was about Troy Grady's "Cracking the Code" videos.

Also Tuck Andress did a really exhaustive analysis: http://www.tuckandpatti.com/pick-finger_tech.html

[JonZ]

The videos mentioned above are great. Jon McGann gives a good description here:
http://jazzmando.com/tips/archives/002077.shtml

[bingoccc]

A quick Marshall vid...

[Simon DS]

...

[Sante]

Hello everyone!

I have a problem regarding my right hand technique, so I figured I'd ask here rather than create a new topic. I'm fairly new to the mandolin, been playing about one year by now. I use the loose fist grip with curled forefinger like most of the tutorials advise, and for some reason, I tend to move my thumb a bit up and down while picking. So on the downstrokes, I press it down a bit, and on the upstrokes, it points a bit upwards. It might be that I'm unconsciously trying to pick using my thumb and my forefinger rather than the whole wrist. I assume it's probably something I have to unlearn, since I don't see any other players doing so, so I'm wondering should I just press harder with my thumb to prevent if from moving, or does it matter in the long run? Have any of you had/seen a similar difficulty, and if yes, what was it that helped you to overcome it?

[DavidKOS]

Which leads me to my question: how would you describe what you consider to be "good" right-hand technique? :

Good question! There are fine mandolinists with quite varying techniques, and all play well for their genre.

I come from the more old Italian/classical school, and as such what I consider "good" technique may not work well when pushing past a banjo player while bellying up to a microphone for your break in a bluegrass band.

. I use the loose fist grip with curled forefinger like most of the tutorials advise, and for some reason, I tend to move my thumb a bit up and down while picking. So on the downstrokes, I press it down a bit, and on the upstrokes, it points a bit upwards.

If this is due to weakness, then that's a bad habit.

If it is because you have such control, focus, follow-through, and force of "Qi" through your thumb and 1st finger, that that is where the motion is initiated, then it is called "circular picking" and is a great advanced technique.

Which I use on guitar a lot and mandolin when needed.

[Andy Hatfield]

Ugh. I spent a long time paying attention to that tuck andres article years ago, until I realized that he plays electric guitar, and doesn't use the same technique we require for bluegrass. I love his playing, but the technique doesn't work for me at all.

My suggestion is to to get too caught up with the motion (wrist, forearm, thumb), and instead focus on:

Good down-up technique (always down on 1 2 3 4, always up on the +'s)

Playing cleanly with a good tone.

Staying relaxed.


Whatever technique you come up with to achieve those goals will probably be pretty good.

--A

[buckshot22]

I agree with jackofblack.

I used to play golf. I was a pretty good player ... make that a very good player. I would just grip it and rip it as they said back in the day. One day I started thinking about how the club head struck the ball, the angle to get proper back spin, how to pinch the ball without digging the club head, blah, blah, blah. My golf game went to crap.

It's like the forest and the trees thing. Don't get so hung up on the specifics that you lose sight of the goal. What jackofblack said:

Good down-up technique (always down on 1 2 3 4, always up on the +'s)

Playing cleanly with a good tone.

Staying relaxed.

Thanks jackofblack

[SincereCorgi]

It might be worth taking a Skype lesson with Radim Zenkl. He has an excellent theory of the different right-hand motions used for mandolin; he breaks them down into three or four different areas, and explains how they combine and change at different speeds and for different effects. Fast playing isn't just slow playing but faster.

[andybean]

Hi all-

Lately I've been reassessing my right hand placement, and I've been kind of mystified as to what might be best. This seems like a good post to ask for suggestions. I've been playing for 10 years or so, kind of off and on, but just in the last few years I've started trying to really increase my speed. What I've run into is this habit of mine to really bear down on the top edge of my bridge when I start speeding up, which in turn limits my range-of-motion and thus ability to go faster! Does anyone else experience this, and how do/have you worked around this? I've been watching tons of youtubes of everyone from Thile and Marshall to Timmy and Bob, any everyone seems to have their own approach to hand/wrist placement...Thile definitely floats more than anyone, it seems, and I am wondering if this is one technique point that helps him play quickly. How have you all improved your speed, and have you had to deal with this factor?

[Jordan Ramsey]

Hi all-

Lately I've been reassessing my right hand placement, and I've been kind of mystified as to what might be best. This seems like a good post to ask for suggestions. I've been playing for 10 years or so, kind of off and on, but just in the last few years I've started trying to really increase my speed. What I've run into is this habit of mine to really bear down on the top edge of my bridge when I start speeding up, which in turn limits my range-of-motion and thus ability to go faster! Does anyone else experience this, and how do/have you worked around this? I've been watching tons of youtubes of everyone from Thile and Marshall to Timmy and Bob, any everyone seems to have their own approach to hand/wrist placement...Thile definitely floats more than anyone, it seems, and I am wondering if this is one technique point that helps him play quickly. How have you all improved your speed, and have you had to deal with this factor?

Two questions: Which hand placement is best? How do I develop speed?....

1. Which hand placement is best?

I think hand placement is a very individual thing, lots of examples of virtuosic playing with just about every approach. I would guess that regardless of the placement, the real key is time behind the wheel with that placement. It seems like your question is, "should I be posting my wrist / touching the bridge, or using a free hand?". Ultimately, you can do either to a high level with enough time behind the wheel. The key is training yourself to relax, which leads to....

2. How do I develop speed?

Most people tense up when they get outside of their speed comfort zone, and it's completely counter productive to developing speed (as you stated). You gotta relax to play fast, and you have to practice relaxing while playing fast to relax while playing fast. One approach that I use with students is to calculate their comfort zone using a metronome.... (Can you play a G major scale up and down in two octaves using 1/16th notes at 80bpm? 100bpm, 200bpm?... Where's the threshold?) In your case I would take a scale / lick / fiddle tune / etc. and find the tempo where you start to bear down on the bridge. Create a practice regimen where you focus on relaxing while executing passages near that tempo. Gradually chisel away at increasing that tempo with various levels of left hand difficulty. If you put a lot of time in to expanding that comfort zone, you will develop increased speed and relaxation in your real world playing. Hope that helps, all the best.

[Beanzy]

Your use of the term "bearing down on" would indicate tension which is a killer of fluidity. Think fluid rather than fast, a relaxed fluid stroke always seems more pleasing to my ear than a faster but snaggy and panicked stroke. The speed normally comes out of the fluid stroke but it's harder to get fluid & free sounding just from going faster.
Can you play without using the bridge as a reference? If not then the confidence to be free of it at speed won't be there. I'd work on being completely free of the bridge at normal speeds.

The other thing to look for is your larger muscle groups and whether your overall stance is letting you relax into playing even at faster speeds. If you allow the larger muscles to tense up you're going to have to counteract that which puts a huge demand on the smaller muscles of the wrist and forearm. Let the whole upper arm hang vertically loose both sides and don't try to hold the elbows up or behind your centre line through your torso. Make sure the mandolin is positioned to your body and not you body trying to fit itself to the mandolin. If you start with getting those big muscles relaxed, then the smaller forearm and wrist areas aren't trying to work from an already tensed base.

I recently caught myself beginning to rest the heel of my hand on the bridge of my bowlback because I had been using it to damp unwanted sustain. Problem is it was staying there and killing the tone the rest of the time and had begun to creep into my playing on the carved top mandolin too. A bit of work with the wrist higher but keeping the forearm aligned with the top, has got it controlled again with the bonus of more fluidity and apparent speed. I say apparent as I'm not sure it's actually faster by more than a smidgin, but it sounds faster to my ear as its fluid and not snaggy or panicked sounding.

[Mandoplumb]

What helped me with speed was consistence volume. I don't know about you but I've noticed it in other people and defiantly in myself, when I try to up the speed I hit the strings harder which tends to stiffen my wrist, if I concentrate on not getting louder, the speed seems to take care of itself. YMMV

[T.D.Nydn]

Good question! There are fine mandolinists with quite varying techniques, and all play well for their genre.

I come from the more old Italian/classical school, and as such what I consider "good" technique may not work well when pushing past a banjo player while bellying up to a microphone for your break in a bluegrass band.



If this is due to weakness, then that's a bad habit.

If it is because you have such control, focus, follow-through, and force of "Qi" through your thumb and 1st finger, that that is where the motion is initiated, then it is called "circular picking" and is a great advanced technique.

Which I use on guitar a lot and mandolin when needed.

David mentions use of "Qi",, in Japan it is called "Ki"..it is the use, practice and understanding to control your spiritual force that is inside of your body. It is how you discover hidden strength,,I have been involved with this since I was 7 years old. A realitivly unknown concept to westerners,,when applied to your playing,,helps with stamina, strength, and can turn pretty much any mandolin into a "banjo killer" if you want it to,,,also helps with Calace playing,, which sounds best when played strongly and loud.