Tonedexter - neat new DI/pre for acoustic instruments

[almeriastrings]

One question...

What data parameters are enclosed within the 'wavemap profile' and how precisely does this differ from the concepts developed by Akai and known as 'Acoustic Spectral Transform'?

[foldedpath]

One question...

What data parameters are enclosed within the 'wavemap profile' and how precisely does this differ from the concepts developed by Akai and known as 'Acoustic Spectral Transform'?

It would be interesting to hear more about the specific technique(s) used, although I don't know how much can be said without getting into proprietary info.

Is that Akai technique similar to the FFT Filter/Sound Cloner plugin in Samplitude? Basically, an auto FFT analysis that uses sophisticated EQ to tweak an input signal so it gets sort-of close to a target waveform. It works better the closer the input is to the target, which is why it might be useful for this sort of thing.

Another possibility might be convolution with impulse responses, but there's probably some lag involved in doing that in real time. The FFT transform stuff is pretty fast.

P.S. I don't know a lot about these techniques, just enough to use 'em occasionally during audio mixing and video post.

[LBob]

Thanks for the info, James.

Interesting info on the Fishman stuff, almeriastrings - that is different than how I thought it had worked - I thought that the images (since they are largely built in and apply to any instrument) were made from recordings (and I guess they sort of are), but that it is essentially doing the same thing as this was not something I really understood. I know Jason Isbell runs those Fishman units, and the stuff I've seen of him live does sound pretty good... I wonder if he has images of his actual instruments?

My understanding is that the Fishman stuff doesn't work w/ mic based pickup systems like Lyric... though I wonder if that would be the case if you actually had them image your exact instrument - that seems like it must be the reason this would work with ToneDexter, because you can do that part yourself, and it doesn't have to assume, as Aura does, that you are using a UST.

James - do you guys plan to have/have you done any demos with Lyric or Anthem systems and ToneDexter? This is what is intriguing to me, and something I'd really like to hear...

[James May]

One question...

What data parameters are enclosed within the 'wavemap profile' and how precisely does this differ from the concepts developed by Akai and known as 'Acoustic Spectral Transform'?

The WaveMap is essentially a complex filter, also known as an impulse response, or IR. For performance, the pickup signal is processed using linear convolution with the IR. That's the trivial part.

The heart and soul of our technology is the ability to create, with just a brief training session that anyone can do, an IR which performs such a remarkably faithful transformation, free of undesirable artifacts.

[almeriastrings]

I figured it was an IR.

From what I can see, then, the main difference between the Tonedexter and (say) the Aura Spectrum is in the 'training' part, and in the ability to do this yourself, rather than have to ship an instrument to Fishman and have them do it for you. In short, a way to create what Fishman refer to as "Custom Images" on the spot.

No doubt there are also some differences in the algorithms used, and in DSP.

I note elsewhere you have said no compression is involved. So, it is using a sophisticated EQ map and time/phase data resulting from the microphone 'measurements'.

[James May]

Hi all,
I'm back after a short trip, once around the sun!

Since our announcement last year and introduction of the first prototypes, we’ve been working hard to re-engineer it for greater affordability and make it even easier to use. We are less than 2 months away from shipping! The price is $399.

Our website has (at last) been updated to reflect the current state of affairs. There are some new videos posted of our beta testers using it in concert, including John Jorgenson and Peter Frampton. Joel Schwarz routinely uses ToneDexter on mandolin, as does John Jorgenson.

Product features and pics are up on the site as well.

Our first production run will be 100 units, and we have a signup list to reserve one from the first batch. That reserve list is filling up fast. After that, we will make more of course, but if you want it asap, you will want to reserve yours by filling out the form on our site.

If there are any new questions, I will try to address them. Thanks to all of you who've already expressed interest, and to those of you we met at NAMM.

[Chunky But Funky]

Hi James,

I sent you an email. Is there one on your site? At least I didn't see it anyway. The suggestions I would have would be for a combi-jack for use of high end outboard mic pre-amps along with presumably high end microphones for the imaging or "learning" process. I also suggest a rental pool of a couple km 184's, a couple of Royer 121's and maybe even a U87. A lunchbox with a few mic pres wouldn't be a bad idea either. This would give your end users the highest quality results without resorting to going to a studio or laying out $2000 for an impulse to a $400 pedal. A digital input (AES, USB etc) would allow use of high end convertors as well. I assume the combination of these things would potentially improve the end result. It may not be logistical from a financial standpoint at this point in the design. It would avoid the temptation for some to buy / return from a big box retailer. Just a thought. Good luck with your endeavors! I like new toys!!!

Edit: I just realized after posting this that it may appear that I would be looking for business out of this. That is not the case. My website is down and I haven't rented anything for a couple of years. I should probably change my avatar & signature! I'm focusing my energies on my doctorate at the moment. I stand by my suggestions that it may be a good model for them either way.

Doug

[James May]

Hi James,

I sent you an email. Is there one on your site? At least I didn't see it anyway. The suggestions I would have would be for a combi-jack for use of high end outboard mic pre-amps along with presumably high end microphones for the imaging or "learning" process. I also suggest a rental pool of a couple km 184's, a couple of Royer 121's and maybe even a U87. A lunchbox with a few mic pres wouldn't be a bad idea either. This would give your end users the highest quality results without resorting to going to a studio or laying out $2000 for an impulse to a $400 pedal. A digital input (AES, USB etc) would allow use of high end convertors as well. I assume the combination of these things would potentially improve the end result. ...

Doug

While I appreciate the desire to get the ultimate sound by using nothing but the best mics and preamps, the truth is that there comes a point of diminishing returns where that last few percent of finesse don't make it across a live sound reinforcement scenario.

Our internal mic preamp was designed to be very clean, and without coloration. That is important for the training process. So, using an external preamp would not offer any real advantage, as far as we can see. If doing that is motivated by the desire to get a slightly different overall EQ, than moving the mic position slightly will be much more effective.

Regarding choice of mic, a modest small diaphragm condenser works great. Large diaphragm condensers will work well too, but one has to be a little more careful with them because they tend to hype the bass response and that's probably not what you will want for a live sound. That said, even a lowly 57 or 58 can be used in a pinch and the results will be much more pleasing than the raw pickup sound.

[mandowilli]

James,

What is the instrument input impedance and also, how about the dimensions of the unit?

[James May]

1megohm
6.3" W x 5.9" D x 2.3" H

[James May]

So the big news is that we are at last shipping! The price is $399 direct. We have stock at the moment, it may not last. You can order on our site.

We have a couple guys using ToneDexter on mandolin professionally: John Jorgenson and Joel Schwartz. I'm fairly certain that the mandolin community will find this box very useful.

[James May]

Since we've been shipping, there's been quite a lot of discussion on Acoustic Guitar Forum, with many happy ToneDexter users. A few of them also play banjo and mandolin, and are getting some very natural sounding amplified tone. I think it's a great solution for mandolin.

[jason bailey]

I have recently gotten the ToneDexter and absolutely love it. I had just started my own thread about it and then after posting noticed this one. My thread includes a link to youtube where I show the ToneDexter compared to my Fishman M-100 piezo pickup. Night and day difference. Below is the youtube link again. Hope y'all enjoy!

thank, Jason

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lr6NgMrv9Rg

[erick]

I recently purchased a Tonedexter for use with a Bourgeois OM style acoustic guitar, and the results have been fantastic. The tone is the closest to a real mic, without feedback that I've ever heard, and I've tried a lot of these systems. I used a nice Neumann KM86 for the recording, and my PU's are K and K's. I've got another set of K and K's I'm planning to put in a Northfield 5 bar to see what they can do- will get back with results.

[colorado_al]

I am also quite pleased with the ToneDexter. It is the best reproduction of the natural sound of my instruments via pickup that I've ever heard.
I also love the fact that there are so many slots for different wave maps. I've setup 5 different instruments with different mics. Such a versatile system.
Here's a video where I'm using the ToneDexter with my Collings MT2-O with a Pickup the World under bridge piezo ribbon pickup. The wave map was made with an MXL-990 large diaphragm condenser mic.

[gspiess]

So if I plug my Eastman into your ToneDexter, will it sound like your Collings? and are the files transferable?

[colorado_al]

So if I plug my Eastman into your ToneDexter, will it sound like your Collings? and are the files transferable?

It doesn't work that way. I have tried using different instruments than what I used to record the wavemap and it does result in more natural sounding results, but not the same. The system does some sort of comparison of the pickup input to the mic input in order to build the wavemap so if the later input is not from the same instrument with the same pickup, it isn't going to result in as good a sound. Maybe if you have the same pickup in different instruments you might get some interesting results.

[mandroid]

My Y'ha 'AG stomp' seems like it had similar goals, A pickup signal, processed, to sound like a Mic'd acoustic.

[Br1ck]

There have been a lot of products trying to make an acoustic pickup sound more like an acoustic, but the ToneDexter is in a whole new league, able to take the signal from an undersaddle transducer, any piezo really, and convert it to sound like whatever mic you have trained it with. This is taking the digitally inclined by storm.

I myself am horribly stuck in the analogue world. Or should I say happily, and have found a setup that works for what I do, so I have no pressing need, but if I did, I'd certainly look into a ToneDexter.

But the sad fact is the non musicians in an audience are ambivalent and just want to be entertained. I once heard a band do a set with at least four extra tracks. They were a four piece, bass, drums, and two guitars. I heard two or three keyboards, congas, and timbales. A guy next to me mentioned what a great band. I asked him about the keys and extra percussion. He was clueless. I asked several others and got the same response.

That was when I realized how clueless people are and that people don't know or care you can't dance a hundred miles an hour and sing at the same time. They just want a show.

[greg_tsam]

That was when I realized how clueless people are and that people don't know or care you can't dance a hundred miles an hour and sing at the same time. They just want a show.

I agree as most here probably do. The audience wants a show but the musician's ears need to be happy too otherwise it's brutal. Chasing that sound is for our benefit not their's.

[Don Grieser]

I heard a bunch of plugged in mandolins at the Pagosa Folk & Bluegrass festival in June. To my ear, the best sounding mandolin was Isaac Eicher's Heiden that he was playing with Forrest O'Connor's band. I happened to run into him on the festival grounds later and he told me he was using a Tonedexter.