Is it necessary to humidify after a few years?

[Stevo75]

Hey all, I live in Colorado where it tends to be very dry. I recently bought a used A style locally that was built in 2008. I believe it sat in the store for a few years before the original owner bought it, but after that it saw a lot of play time (original owner was in a band and it looks well played).

I seriously doubt the original owner kept the mando in it's case with an in-case humidifier when it was not being played (although I may send him an email and ask about it). I like to keep my mandolins out on a stand in my living room because I play them a lot more that way, but they don't get any humidity like that. Is that an issue after several years? I remember when I bought my guitar, the shop owner stressed how important it was to keep it humidified, but I think I remember him saying that after 10 years or so the wood has adjusted to the dry climate and it's less of an issue.

Any thoughts on the matter? Does anyone else like to keep their instruments out of their cases so that they're more accessible for play time?

[sunburst]

Wood does not "adjust". Wood is hygroscopic, and it will take on moisture when the relative humidity (RH) is high and release moisture when the RH is low for as long as it is wood. In other words, the mandolin needs to be humidified just as much after 10 years as it did when it was new.
You may be able to get away with not humidifying your mandolin's environment, but it will not be because the wood has "adjusted to" the dry air, it will be just because you are lucky. Very old instruments develop cracks and joint failures in dry conditions just as new ones do.

[allenhopkins]

First, most instruments exposed to humidity ranges in US dwellings, don't crack. A certain proportion of those kept in low-humidity environments, will lose sufficient moisture from the wood cells in their tops, causing the cells to shrink, to cause the wood to split along grain lines. This is the most common variety of "dryness cracking," though there also can be effects on glue joints, finishes, top curvature on arched-top instruments, and perhaps neck straightness.

You can always "take a chance": that your mandolin won't be affected, and I'd say that the overall odds would be with you. But you are risking some damage. You really don't know under what conditions the previous owner kept it; he/she might have had an effective humidification system for the entire house, or kept it in the most humid part of the dwelling (I keep all my instruments in my basement, the place least affected by central heat dryness in the winter; i de-humidify it in summer).

So, how risk-averse are you? My usual advice is "better safe than sorry," and I'm not a fan of keeping instruments out on stands 24/7. The possibilities of damage, aside from humidity considerations, are substantially greater if they're unprotected. And you say you "play them a lot more" when they're kept uncased, presumably due to the strenuous 30-second effort required to open a case and take the mandolin out...?

If you're determined not to go the case-and-humidifier route, I'd at least suggest you consider a room humidifier for the room where you keep your instruments. Almost every dealer I've seen makes some effort to keep instruments that "sit in the store" humidified -- in order to protect the minority of them that will crack if they dry out.

[Shelagh Moore]

Not a problem in our climate fortunately and I try to keep as many of my instruments as possible hanging on walls and available for playing.

[multidon]

Even if the instrument is not damaged other things can happen with dryness. The action can change for example, especially on a carved top. Then you have to adjust the bridge, which makes you tweak the truss rod, which makes you adjust the action again. Phooey on all that, I say. It's much easier to keep it in the case humidified.

Wooden instruments like a consistent environment of humidity and temperature. There is so much evidence. Look at the strict temperature and humidity controls in place at the very good instrument makers shops. Some of them, like Taylor and Weber for example, freely communicate the environmental conditions in their shops. And look at all the old instruments that got stored in the attic after the mandolin orchestra craze was over and people lost interest. I always cringe when someone says they found an old violin, mandolin, or use in grandpa's attic. Can you think of any worse place to store a wooden instrument than an attic where the environment is completely unregulated? How many violins, mandolins, or ukes from the teens and twenties have you seen that didn't have at least one, probably several cracks? Those who deny environmental requirements or try to avoid them are just fighting nature.
It is so much easier and cheaper to just humidify in the case than it is to deal with the alternative.

I monitor the humidity in my house and humidify in the cases when it falls below 35 percent RH.

[Tony Sz]

You might look into investing in a Hygrometer. They're not expensive, and you'll have a better idea of just how dry your environment is. Some places, in the winter, can be drier than a desert! When I was younger, I had a 45 year old guitar that developed a crack while living in a NYC steam heated apartment. Ever since then, I've had a hygrometer, and kept a close eye on the humidity level of my home. Haven't had a problem since.

[Bob A]

I seriously doubt the original owner kept the mando in it's case with an in-case humidifier when it was not being played (although I may send him an email and ask about it). I like to keep my mandolins out on a stand in my living room because I play them a lot more that way, but they don't get any humidity like that. Is that an issue after several years? I remember when I bought my guitar, the shop owner stressed how important it was to keep it humidified, but I think I remember him saying that after 10 years or so the wood has adjusted to the dry climate and it's less of an issue.

Any thoughts on the matter? Does anyone else like to keep their instruments out of their cases so that they're more accessible for play time?

I used to keep a guitar in a Mark Leaf case that was pretty much hermetically sealed, with a Dampit in the soundhole. It over-humidified the instrument and caused the neck block to swell. Once I started accumulating instruments, it seemed reasonable to humidify the room environment, so I got an evaporative humidifier and I run it when it gets cold enough to keep the central heating running. It is especially important when the outside air gets below freezing, because the air holds so little moisture at those temps; it's as dry as a desert, really.

In the summer I run A/C to keep the interior moisture at or below 50% RH. In the winter, I do the best I can to keep the humidity at or above 40% RH - not always possible, but certainly better than doing nothing.

An instrument made out of steam-molded plywood and slathered with polyurethane inside and out will be relatively unaffected by humidity changes, but anything that was made of decent materials by a competent maker deserves better treatment. The best thing you can do for a wooden instrument is to keep it in a stable environment, with temperatures and humidity as close to constant as possible, and with the relative humidity in the range of 40-50%. As it happens, that's a pretty good rule for human comfort as well.

Here's a link to violinmaker David Burgess's site, where he discusses humidity and its effects and control. Worth a read:

http://www.burgessviolins.com/humidity.html

[pops1]

I always humidify the whole house, it's cheap and maybe we only think of our instruments, but furniture, cupboards, floors, walls. If you have wood floors and they squeak it's most likely because of humidity changes. If you have a nail in a board (house) and it's humid the wood swells and the nail is tight, house dries out in winter from heat and the wood shrinks, nail gets loose. How much you let the house dry out will determine how much the wood dries out and how loose the nail gets. I like to keep 50% and it's not that hard even with wood heat. At worst 40%, a lot of homes in cold climates will get down to 15-20% easily. Not good for anything, it even feels warmer for the same temperature at a higher humidity. Your nose will love you too. Well there is my rant, now for more coffee.

[Dale Ludewig]

Not trying to be contrarian, but adjusting the bridge does not mean you have to adjust the truss rod. Depends on the situation. The two are not wedded.

[JonDoug]

I tend to be a minimalist when it comes to accessories, but my usually reliable Collings MT would have difficulty staying in tune and sometimes buzz with the start of "heater season." I bought an inexpensive small case humidifier and started keeping the instrument in the case. It's pretty amazing what evaporating a teaspoon of distilled water a week has done for the for stability of the instrument--well worth it for the immediate benefits, in my opinion.

[Tobin]

I'm really surprised that this question comes up year after year. It's like asking "do I really need to change the oil in my car?"

It's a simple and proven fact that many instruments have cracked over time from the drying out and shrinking of wood due to low humidity. Is there anyone who doesn't believe this happens, or thinks it's not related to humidity levels?

It may be true that some instruments may never crack, even when subjected to the same dry conditions that would crack other instruments. How do you know if yours will be the lucky one? You don't. Subjecting it to very dry humidity levels is a gamble, plain and simple. You won't know you've lost until it's too late. Why would anyone willingly take that chance? I don't mean to be insulting here, but is it just laziness? Is it the "it can't happen to me" mindset? Knowing what we know about low humidity and wood shrinkage, just like knowing what happens to an engine running on dirty oil, what causes people to choose not to address it? Or to even ask if it's necessary?

Every single one of my vintage instruments that are 75 years old or older have shrinkage cracks from previous owners. I can forgive them because they didn't know any better, and lived in a time before indoor environmental controls. Nobody today really has that excuse.

Sorry if it's insensitive to say it that way. It's your instrument, and it's totally up to you whether you take care of it or not. Just don't be surprised if it does crack one day if you didn't make any attempt to keep its internal moisture levels within the known safe range. There is some leeway outside the safe zone of 40%-50%, especially for short periods. But long term neglect on the humidification front, especially in known dry environs, is taking a huge risk. A feller once said:

...you've gotta ask yourself one question: "Do I feel lucky?" Well, do ya, punk?

[Genesis]

I keep all my instruments on pegboard wall hangers in a 6x9 room that has a dehumidifier in the summer and a humidifier in the winter. 44%-55%. I started being concerned about humidity when a maple neck guitar's neck bowed after 3 months. Seagull replaced the guitar and i started climate control.
I use only meters that can be calibrated, which I do once a year. The brand is Hygroset in my case, and i have both round ones and rectangular ones. The round ones were designed for guitar case and humidor interior, so are not as readable as the rectangular ones.
5 meters are placed in zones in the room, 1 near the humidity control device, and 4 at levels corresponding to head stocks and lower bouts of the walls of guitars, mandolins and lone banjo.
Yes, overkill... but after losing a guitar for 3 months... i became overly-paranoid.

[stevedenver]

as a fellow Coloradan
I have a 67 and 76 martins, 1 02 Gibson fern, an L5C archtop, all decades old, and all kept in their cases. Others too.
No cracks, and I have had the martins for 45 and 18 years respectively, the others over a decade.

I have baseboard heating and the house is kept about 62-65 degrees.
I have case hygrometers and room hygrometers

fwiw, Colorado humidity seems to range from about the teens when frigid to 100 in the rain, with a mean, about 40%, give or take. This is on the edge of acceptable.

I did not humidify until I came to this board. After speaking with Hans Brentrup, and reading the knowledge base here, I do now, more from caution. As Tobin and others have said, the simple humidity changes, even if not resulting in cracks , eventually loosen joints, crack finish, binding, etc. Wood does expand and contract with changes. If you notice frets protruding mid winter, your fingerboard has contracted.

I use a baggy, thoroughly perforated, with half a normal bath sized cellulose sponge, damp but not soaked.

I have also used old film canisters or larger pill bottles, perforated and stuffed not to tightly with cellulose sponge, tucked in near the heel.

The case hygrometers (actually humidor hygrometers) , from amazon for about 10 bucks, and room versions (about 12) helped me get a better idea of what was actually going on. None are dead accurate, but they are close enough to let you know about whats going on.

I too used to think my overbuilt martins had adjusted, and they might have.....but I understand now, that it is simply prudent not to push it...ie they might take it, but, even after decades, given a big change in humidity, temp, etc, they might not.

I firmly believe that a cased instrument has a buffer between large temp and humidity changes.

It is in fact the change more than dryness, as I understand things that is the villain. Over humidifying is possibly worse than under, but be clear, neither is good.

And while none of us need more 'stuff' to manage, when you add a humidifier, you need to know what's going on in the case, and avoid over or under doing things.

[George R. Lane]

Here in Helena, Montana has been an extremely dry winter and my planet waves case humidifier just wasn't cutting it (I always keep it in the case) . I bought another one and it has helped somewhat. The room I keep my mandolin in is in the same room as my pool table, it 14 x 26 feet and the RH is usually around 35%. The room is heated by radiant heating in the concrete floor and I just ordered a Honeywell room humidifier to try and get the RH up in the 40-50%. I have noticed this year my mando going sharp one day then flat the next, it is driving me crazy. I hope all this helps.

[Tobin]

I've had a tough time keeping humidity up too. I use a room humidifier, and my hygrometer still shows that the room doesn't get any higher than about 30% with it running when I have the heater on. If I turn the heater off it will go up to around 50%. So I use case humidifiers in all my cases plus the room humidifier. The case humidifiers are all shriveled up by the end of the week when I refill them. The instruments are probably in a mild state of distress, but I'm OK with that so they don't get "shocked" too badly when I pull them out to play. I just couldn't imagine leaving all my instruments bone dry all winter. Cumulatively, there's a lot of money sitting in there, and I insure them, but I'd be foolish to let them get damaged from neglect. Insurance won't cover that.

[TC-in-NC]

I always humidify the whole house, it's cheap and maybe we only think of our instruments, but furniture, cupboards, floors, walls. If you have wood floors and they squeak it's most likely because of humidity changes. If you have a nail in a board (house) and it's humid the wood swells and the nail is tight, house dries out in winter from heat and the wood shrinks, nail gets loose. How much you let the house dry out will determine how much the wood dries out and how loose the nail gets. I like to keep 50% and it's not that hard even with wood heat. At worst 40%, a lot of homes in cold climates will get down to 15-20% easily. Not good for anything, it even feels warmer for the same temperature at a higher humidity. Your nose will love you too. Well there is my rant, now for more coffee.

Exactly! We just moved from a drafty apartment to a new house, and after watching the humidity levels drop to 31% over this last weekend I went out today and bought a humidifier. Not just for the instruments, but also because we have wood cabinets and wood / antique furniture. Figured it was a small expense that should help prevent larger expenses (repairs) in the future.

[pops1]

I bought my humidifier for $80, it holds 5 gal. of water and the only moving part is a small fan. Uses very little electricity and I have had it for 20 years. It manages to keep my place 40-50% easily with 100% wood heat. I can't imagine any insurance so cheap. I fill it every day if it is sub zero for extended periods, which is rare, or twice a week normally. Much easier than a room humidifier, or case humidifier and takes care of the house and all the wood in it. I can't imagine any insurance or other means of humidifying that is as cheap or easy.
ps is doesn't run all of the time either and is quiet. Gotta love it.

[Stevo75]

I bought my humidifier for $80, it holds 5 gal. of water and the only moving part is a small fan. Uses very little electricity and I have had it for 20 years. It manages to keep my place 40-50% easily with 100% wood heat. I can't imagine any insurance so cheap. I fill it every day if it is sub zero for extended periods, which is rare, or twice a week normally. Much easier than a room humidifier, or case humidifier and takes care of the house and all the wood in it. I can't imagine any insurance or other means of humidifying that is as cheap or easy.
ps is doesn't run all of the time either and is quiet. Gotta love it.

What kind of humidifier is this? A standard room humidifier (I'm thinking of the misting kind) won't work for me as my house is very open and spacious. Those are good for a bedroom but that's about it. Maybe the best approach is a whole house humidifier installed on my furnace.

Thanks all for your responses.

[pops1]

I don't care for the furnace humidifier, tho there are different opinions. No this is not a vaporizer that does a room. Those are more suited to when you have a cold I feel. This is a Bemiss , they make different kinds, mine fills one big tank, some have two plastic 2 1/2 gal. jugs that you can easily pull out and fill if you can't position it near a water source. they are large enough to humidify an entire house, and are about the size of a large suitcase if you were talking a couple decades ago before they had wheels. Not really all that big and much better than the old ones that had the wheel that turned, too many moving parts and had problems all the time. I do replace the paper wick every couple of years. If you have hard water and don't add anything i'd replace it every year. So the wick soaks up water and the fan blows thru the wick. Kind of like the radiator in a car except instead of cooling liquid you are blowing air thru the wick that picks up the moisture.

http://www.amazon.com/Essick-Air-821...is+humidifiers

Here is one like mine on amazon, looks like a higher price now, and a new name but looks like the same unit. Mine is brown.

[Stevo75]

pops1, thanks I think I'll pick one of those up. I really want to be able to leave a mandolin and guitar out on a stand. I think they look great as far as room decoration goes and they do get played a lot more. I know it only takes a minute to go into another room and pull an instrument out of the case, but I get a lot of spontaneous play time when I'm doing stuff around the house and a good song comes up on Pandora that I want to play along to. That wouldn't happen if I needed to go to my humidified room and get something out of it's case.

And just to clarify for previous posters, I'm talking about leaving one mandolin and guitar out on display. If I had a suite of instruments worth $30K I'd keep them in their cases in a humidified (and locked) room as well. But I'd rather keep my $1000 guitar and $1500 mandolin somewhere where I can look at them and play them all the time. If something happens, so be it. Instruments are meant to be played and enjoyed. That said, I appreciate all of the information. One of the things I was not sure of is whether or not an instrument can adjust to a specific environment that is not the ideal (dry in this case). I'm going to get a cheap hygrometer and a "whole house" humidifier and hopefully that does the trick (or at least takes the edge off in winter).

[Nashville]

Get a good hygrometer that is accurate, you don't want a cheap one that is giving you a false reading. The advice is all good on this thread.

But I spent 20 years in dry Montana and never had a room humidifier nor did any of my friends. Our instruments were out most of the time in dry conditions or at least very uncontrolled conditions and never was any damage done. Maybe it is just luck. But I did notice differences in action and occasionally I did need to keep the guitar in it's case with some small case humidifier. Then I'd do the same for my mandolin and fiddle. I'd be a good boy for awhile and then get lazy again. I liked to have them out to play. Most people I knew just put a pan of water on top of the wood stove. It worked.

Nowadays I use a large (3 gal) room humidifier and keep close watch. All my instruments are out and line the walls or are on stands. I do have about $30k worth of guitars and mandolins and a priceless fiddle over 250 years old. I like them out where i can see them or touch them everyday.

Yes, low humidity will damage your instruments but it doesn't happen over night. It takes a bit of time. And no, it's not really worth the risk. I guess I pushed it when I was younger cause I didn't know any better. But now I wouldn't be without a good gauge and humidifier. And I'm like you, I got my guitar and mandolin right next to my chair ready to grab at any minute.

[pops1]

Stevo, the link is for the one similar to mine, I have a water source near so i can just turn a valve and fill it, You may want to look into the jug kind, but then you can always fill a container and dump it in too. I would like to leave mine out, but pets and wives prevent me from doing so. I'm lucky to leave the case out where i can just open it and grab the mandolin. I like to jam along with stuff that comes up when i am listening too.

[Stevo75]

Great, thanks for the advice guys! I should have said inexpensive hygrometer rather than cheap. It sounds like I can get one that is accurate enough for around $10-$15 (which is pretty cheap considering we now spend that much or more on our picks )

[Ivan Kelsall]

Ok Folks - Here's a question from somebody who's read about the benefits of humidification,but has never seen the need to use a humidifier over here in the UK. What's the optimum humidity % required in a room to keep a mandolin properly humidified ?. Is it the 40% - 50 % mentioned above ?.
As i say,over here, while we don't have the extremes that you folk have in the US,there's no harm at all in checking things out. It might be of benefit,it might not. There are many Hygrometers available in the UK,all pretty inexpensive,so i'd buy one for my main practice room,
Ivan

[Bertram Henze]

With instruments on stands, you better keep off
- cats
- dogs
- kids
- angry people
- drunk people
- sleepy people
i.e. practically any life form on this planet. YouTube is full of animals and people falling on/jumping on what might have been your mandolin.

Compared to that, humidity is negligible.