To assemble or buy cheap

[gregoriousd]

Hello mandofriends, I have a question for you on this most joyous of Wednesdays.
I just completed the restoration of an old bowlback (pics are coming), which could have honestly been a wall hanger if I had a playable mandolin in the first place. I like to tinker and learn, so I did it! This is the mandolin that I am going to learn on, at least until the bug grows into a beast and I bite the bullet on a nice instrument. So my question is, rather than spending time with this glorified slippery watermelon of a mandolin should I just go buy something a little more reasonable to learn on?

I'm talking pretty cheap. The $50 Rogue with a good setup or the saga A model kit.

Since I am currently obsessed with lutheiry, I would really like to assemble the Saga kit to the best of my abilities. That includes graduating, upgrading hardware a bit, really trying to get the most out of ~$100. The voice of reason says buy the little Rouge, spend some time with Rob Meldrums ebook (thank you!) so I get get playing RIGHT AWAY. I would like to think that if I bought the Rogue to learn on now, maybe I'd get an F5 kit in the future to really blast off the luthier skills.

So I guess it boils down to- if one were to build the Saga kit and really nail it would it be xxxx better sounding than the Rogue? I have searched for some opinions but honestly I just really like talking about this stuff.

Thanks a bunch, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!!

[MikeEdgerton]

The Rogue is laminated, the Saga kit is solid woods. As much as some people love those Rogues the Saga kit, assembled correctly would probably be the better instrument.

[jazzjune18]

Regardless of which one (actually) sounds better, you will want to play the saga kit more because "you built it".

[UsuallyPickin]

Do you want to learn how to play or how to build ... or both...... yes solid wood sounds better ... how many hours do you want to invest before you start playing? Inquiring minds want to know .... R/

[multidon]

What is your true goal? To learn how to play or learn how to build?

As Mike points out, the Saga kit has the potential to give you a much better instrument in the end, but building even a kit is time consuming, and will delay your learning how to play considerably. Plus, there is the chance you will end up with an instrument that is not so good, if you are a beginner in luthiery mistakes are almost inevitable. The Rogue, if properly set up, will be good enough to learn on until you get something better. Additionally, if anyone starts out building a kit to save money you will be disappointed. You will have to buy tools and finishing supplies, the cost of which may double your total cost or even exceed the cost of the kit. Luthiery requires some specialized tools that are not in the average home wood shop, including, but not limited to, spool clamps, nut files, fret leveling file, fret crowning and dressing files, a fretting hammer...you get the idea. Look at the Stew Mac site and see how much these tools cost. They are really not worth investing in just to build one kit. Add to that the cost of the finish and various grades of high quality sandpaper (the cheap stuff won't do) and you will see the true cost of building a kit.

I too was once upon a time obsessed with luthiery so I know exactly what you are talking about. I got over it. I can tell you it is a very expensive hobby because of the tools. The thing that finally got me over it was the realization that I could never, no matter how hard I tried, build an instrument as well as the good folks who build professionally. So I leave the building to those who really know what they are doing.

If you truly are obsessed with luthiery, then maybe you should buy the Rogue, get Rob Meldrum to send you his free E book n mandolin set up, and get the tools he suggests (he has some low cost alternative tool ideas) and set up that Rogue yourself. Most luthiers will tell you that learning how to do a set up is a very basic skill that they all had to learn at the beginning level. Crawl before walking and walk before running, that would be my advise.

[Austin Bob]

Well, you already have an instrument to learn on while you build your kit. So it seems like an easy choice to go ahead and buy the kit (I'd start with an A), then build it to the best of your abilities. If your playing skills reach the point to where you feel you've outgrown both of the instruments, then you will truly know the meaning of MAS.

[Doug Edwards]

If you have confidence in your skills, a saga kit or one from International Violin would give you a nice sounding instrument. I've done six of these with great results.

[gregoriousd]

I would like to do both, with the scale tipping towards playing because I don't see being a professional builder in my future. Perhaps as a retirement plan, although I'm only half way to that mark.
Thank you for the opinions, very much appreciated! I hadn't considered the laminate vs solid wood. That just about sums it up. As for time invested without playing, hopefully the bowlback will allow for some learning while I build. I don't mean to make excuses but playing this thing kinda feels like learning how to drive stickshift on a Ferrari... temperamental at best.

In response to Don, thank you for your advice. The kit purchase is somewhat to save money, but also to quench the thirst of wanting to build something. Over time I think I would get into more building, I am definitely aware of the costs of pro level tools (yikes!). I really like Rob's take on the MacGuyver tools he puts together, and other's home made spool clamps and the like.

[jazzjune18]

Pro level tools are nice, but you can find (some) alternatives at your local hardware store (like most things, eventually you will want to upgrade those tools), but you can easily build a kit without spending a dime at stew mac. The saga kit is pretty simple. Geared towards a first timer. You can make it as simple or customized as you want. it is what got me started (now I have built two scratch build Mandos, octave mandolin, Mandela, etc. the saga kits are a GREAT start.

[gregoriousd]

OK I'm in. I think I'll go the IV route as Amazon is out of Sagas and from what I have read there is better quality control? Thank you all again for your kind advice to this newb

[pointpergame]

I've built scores of instruments starting with fretless banjos and mountain dulcimers; those with nothing more than an X-acto razor saw, #11 pointy blades, and a table's leg for clamping. After that crude start, it was fairly easy to work up to professional quality. It is a deeply rewarding way to spend a significant fraction of ones life. Mandolins are tricky little devils, definitely the big leagues, but quality kits and the internet are significant legs up.

I'd encourage you to satisfy the yearning to build. In my opinion, the drive towards a better instrument is just the bias a builder needs to create a great instrument. A kit lets you sort of "cheat" your way deeply into the process without the expense and more profound failures that go with the trial and error method. Of course, the notorious MAS will morph into BBMS ( Build a Better Mandolin Syndrome ). Go for it.

[jhowell]

From my own experience of building a couple of good guitar kits (shout out to Tippie Hall) and a couple of three more from scratch I can say that the building journey is fantastic....just don't expect to save any money!

[darrylicshon]

I've you don't like your bowl back you might try selling it then get the rogue then get the kit.

[Stephen Perry]

The keys on kit or other woodworking is one's skill set and vision. One can only shape as well as one's vision allows you to tell what you are shaping, limited by how effectively your chops work with the tools. Another element is one's ability to work with calm, abiding attention. That is really important. So hard to get wood to grow back.

[SGraham]

Building your own instrument is absolutely absorbing. You will build the thing a hundred times in your head during the process of building it on your bench. It can lead in unanticipated directions too...

You'll see an old coffee table sitting on the curb on trash morning. You'll think, "Gee, that would make a nice instrument." You take it home with you, considering scratch building a mandolin. Now you'll need something to resaw the wood with. So, you find an old bandsaw that would do the job but it needs a bit of restoration first. You take it home with you. There's a learning curve on restoring old tools, so by the time you've picked up and restored a bandsaw, planer, jointer, spindle sander, table saw, drum sander, etc, a year or two has gone by. Those are just the power tools...Adding in the hand planes, scrapers, spokeshaves, chisels, etc, and learning how to bring them to useable shape is a whole other story. Oh yes, there are all kinds of jigs you'll need to make. Add in clamps--you can never have too many clamps--and somewhere to hang them. You started out intending to build an instrument from scratch, but in the end you became a trash-picking wood addict and hunter of rusty old iron. You didn't mean to go there, but that's where the journey took you. Don't ask me how I know this. I should add that I've loved every minute of it.

I guess the reason I jotted this down is to say that the innocent intention of "building your own" can easily turn into a lifestyle.

[gregoriousd]

I had that thought for a second but it came from a great great uncle, not the most amazing family heirloom but I think it's cool that he played on this with my relatives way back in the 20's. Too bad he didn't buy an F5 Loar huh? There's a story of another guy in our family that had "an old beautiful banjo" from that time. I cringe when I hear those words and how it was probably sold at a garage sale for next to nothing.

Hey this is a little off topic but maybe some builders know, when you do an unbound mandolin do you shave the plates and ribs at 45's to match up in a nice little line (like crown molding in a corner) or is it just like usual how the top and bottom sit directly on the ribs? I like the look of the Weber Gallatin A for this build and am interested in how that is all done.

[bbcee]

Right on the money, multidon & SGraham - I'm glad to be playing more now and not continually obsessing about materials, designs, paying for tools out of the "slush fund", and not getting any playing time in.

Did I mention that it was a total gas?? Enjoy it, however you decide to do it, @gregoriousd!!

[Kip Carter]

I'd suggest your first mandolin project should be an A not an F. Building a great A can be a good start to building a good F as there is substantial degree's of difficulty involve between the two styles. Much more than what meets the eyes first blush.

In addition to being simpler beginning an A will set a bar of quality for your future standard moving forward. So as, never to allow 'Good enough' to creep into your future builds. Mentally you will be tuned to a minimum standard of your first build and seek to exceed that. The better that outcome the better the subsequent build.

[gregoriousd]

The plan is to heed that line of advice, move from A to F then maybe... a mandocello?!?! I hear where you are coming from Kip, even if it takes a year I would never want to settle with "good enough". My bowlback and I are getting along nicely now, so much that I haven't had time to take pics of the finished product. Maybe sometime this week.