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Thread: Designing a new type of double top Mandolin (DT Model)

  1. #1
    Ibis - Unique Instruments Yaron Naor's Avatar
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    Default Designing a new type of double top Mandolin (DT Model)

    Hello my friends...
    Long time...
    I have been research/designing a new double top mandolin, so I will have 2 types to offer...
    "One top" type or "Double top" type, the double top will make the sound more early music, round and sweet and less bright/modern/metallic sound.

    Enjoy the process...

    Yaron Naor, Luthier
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    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Designing a new type of double top Mandolin (DT Model)

    Are they similar to the Kerman design?

    We still don't know enough about the new Israeli design mandolins. Do you have a link to your website?

    Thanks!

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    Default Re: Designing a new type of double top Mandolin (DT Model)

    Yes, what is a "double top"? Nomex hex within 2 thin sheets?
    Stephen Perry
    www.giannaviolins.com - Primarily violin family
    mandovoodoo.com - Acoustic blueprinting
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  6. #4
    I may be old but I'm ugly billhay4's Avatar
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    Default Re: Designing a new type of double top Mandolin (DT Model)

    Yaron,
    Look forward to seeing more about this design as I'm working on a similar concept.
    Thanks,
    Bill
    IM(NS)HO

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    Ibis - Unique Instruments Yaron Naor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Designing a new type of double top Mandolin (DT Model)

    Thanks David,
    Yes, they are similar to the Kerman by having 2 soundboards and 3 sound-holes, all other is diferent
    I have a Picasa web albums with all the stuff I make:
    https://picasaweb.google.com/116712080015313073524

    and a facebook:
    https://www.facebook.com/Yaron-Naor-...9004300779689/

    Thanks
    Yaron Naor, luthier

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    Default Re: Designing a new type of double top Mandolin (DT Model)

    Thanks Stephan,
    "Double top" in my design is another spruce soundboard under 1" beneath the one you see, but not touching it,
    I don't use Nomex. it is a long period of try/error and a lot of models... until i am pleased with this one!
    Yaron.

  11. #7
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    Default Re: Designing a new type of double top Mandolin (DT Model)

    Quote Originally Posted by billhay4 View Post
    Yaron,
    Look forward to seeing more about this design as I'm working on a similar concept.
    Thanks,
    Bill
    Thanks Bill!
    Good luck!
    Yaron.

  12. #8
    Registered User Tavy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Designing a new type of double top Mandolin (DT Model)

    Yaron, this is very interesting as right now I'm just finishing off restoring the 4th double-top Ceccherini I've had pass through. I wonder if you're willing to share images of the second top and how it's suspended? It would be interesting to compare to Ceccherini's designs which seem to evolve over time (for the better too).

    Here's how the best of the Ceccherini's designs shape up:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Default Re: Designing a new type of double top Mandolin (DT Model)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavy View Post
    Yaron, this is very interesting as right now I'm just finishing off restoring the 4th double-top Ceccherini I've had pass through. I wonder if you're willing to share images of the second top and how it's suspended? It would be interesting to compare to Ceccherini's designs which seem to evolve over time (for the better too).

    Here's how the best of the Ceccherini's designs shape up:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Dear Tavy,
    Thanks for the info, it will be great working with you and share the info
    My second SB will be as this in your sketch but all over, with 3 holes as in my photos
    standing on side posts around the sides, the body is FLAT not bowl! as in Ceccherini instruments
    Thanks,
    Yaron Naor, Luthier

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    Default Re: Designing a new type of double top Mandolin (DT Model)

    What is the theory behind this?
    Stephen Perry
    www.giannaviolins.com - Primarily violin family
    mandovoodoo.com - Acoustic blueprinting
    South Side Chicagoland

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  18. #11
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    Default Re: Designing a new type of double top Mandolin (DT Model)

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen Perry View Post
    What is the theory behind this?
    I really wish someone hadn't asked that

    I suspect the effect is so complex that it's going to be hard to rationalise, possibly all one can say is "this works" or "this doesn't". However, if you don't mind a bit of speculation:

    • An internal resonator such as this or the Virzi should make no sound (at least not directly). However it must presumably have some effect on the movement of air within the chamber.
    • The Ceccherini second soundboards are very thin and flexible, one could speculate that they function as a high-pass filter sucking out all the extraneous low frequency rumbles.
    • It's a plate reverb: energy gets sucked out of the strings and into the second top, only to be given back to the main top later.


    BTW, in terms of tap tones there's not much difference between a Ceccherini and a similar DeMeglio with no second sound board:

    Ceccherini:

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    DeMeglio:

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  20. #12
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    Default Re: Designing a new type of double top Mandolin (DT Model)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavy View Post
    I really wish someone hadn't asked that

    I suspect the effect is so complex that it's going to be hard to rationalise, possibly all one can say is "this works" or "this doesn't". However, if you don't mind a bit of speculation:

    • An internal resonator such as this or the Virzi should make no sound (at least not directly). However it must presumably have some effect on the movement of air within the chamber.
    • The Ceccherini second soundboards are very thin and flexible, one could speculate that they function as a high-pass filter sucking out all the extraneous low frequency rumbles.
    • It's a plate reverb: energy gets sucked out of the strings and into the second top, only to be given back to the main top later.


    BTW, in terms of tap tones there's not much difference between a Ceccherini and a similar DeMeglio with no second sound board:

    Ceccherini:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    DeMeglio:

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    Thanks Tavy for answering, I agree with all you pointed
    My flat back mandolin is powerful (volume) and modern metallic sound (sharp and crisp)
    *(For Stephan also) By designing a based-on Ceccherini/Kerman second soundboard I found out that there is a major effect on the movement of air within the the 2 "Areas" and 3 holes... it ,makes the sound more "early music" style, round and sweat without getting the volume down
    Regards,
    Yaron Naor, Luthier
    Last edited by Yaron Naor; Dec-21-2015 at 4:24pm.

  21. #13
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    Default Re: Designing a new type of double top Mandolin (DT Model)

    I'm tempted to pop together a violin with an inside thingie of some type for fun. I have a difficult time visualizing how all this works! Too many experimental instruments for me to make, plus our new CNC developments (not in instrument bodies). Thanks for the thoughts on this system!
    Stephen Perry
    www.giannaviolins.com - Primarily violin family
    mandovoodoo.com - Acoustic blueprinting
    South Side Chicagoland

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  23. #14
    Ibis - Unique Instruments Yaron Naor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Designing a new type of double top Mandolin (DT Model)

    Getting ready for the finish!
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    Registered User Tavy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Designing a new type of double top Mandolin (DT Model)

    Yaron, I really love the scroll work in those soundholes - the oud soundholes on your picasa pages are amazing too - I won't ask you how many you break but what do you cut them from - spruce?

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    Default Re: Designing a new type of double top Mandolin (DT Model)

    Toda.... it is very nice. Can you post a sound sample. Shalom.

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    Default Re: Designing a new type of double top Mandolin (DT Model)

    Have you seen Brian Dean's Grand Concert mandolins? They have a double top as well. I could not find a photo but I think there is a discussion with pictures of them on the mandolincafe archives.

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/l4brai...57633881092796
    Decipit exemplar vitiis imitabile

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  31. #18

    Default Re: Designing a new type of double top Mandolin (DT Model)

    Love the idea and the laser-cut sound holes. Lovely.

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  33. #19
    Ibis - Unique Instruments Yaron Naor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Designing a new type of double top Mandolin (DT Model)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavy View Post
    Yaron, I really love the scroll work in those soundholes - the oud soundholes on your picasa pages are amazing too - I won't ask you how many you break but what do you cut them from - spruce?
    Thanks a lot! for visiting my Picasa albums too

    Yaron Naor, Luthier

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Jacobson View Post
    Love the idea and the laser-cut sound holes. Lovely.
    Thanks for taking the time to write and comment! appreciate it...

    Yaron Naor, Luthier

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    Default Re: Designing a new type of double top Mandolin (DT Model)

    Quote Originally Posted by DougC View Post
    Have you seen Brian Dean's Grand Concert mandolins? They have a double top as well. I could not find a photo but I think there is a discussion with pictures of them on the mandolincafe archives.

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/l4brai...57633881092796
    Wow thanks, I heard about him and love his work, real art!

    Yaron Naor, Luthier

  36. #21
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    Default Re: Designing a new type of double top Mandolin (DT Model)

    Quote Originally Posted by PH-Mando View Post
    Toda.... it is very nice. Can you post a sound sample. Shalom.
    Thanks, I am now in finishing process, when I'll finish it I will post a video for all of us...

    Thanks,
    Yaron Naor, Luthier

  37. #22
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    Default Re: Designing a new type of double top Mandolin (DT Model)

    On the finishing line.... drying....
    Click image for larger version. 

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  38. #23
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    Default Re: Designing a new type of double top Mandolin (DT Model)

    That's it, the new Mandolin is ready
    I love the sound very much, the video will be on the next post
    Enjoy the final images:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Thanks,
    Yaron Naor, Luthier

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    Default Re: Designing a new type of double top Mandolin (DT Model)

    And the Mandolin master Shmuel Elbaz came to make a spontaneous demo
    Thanks Shmuel,

    Regards,
    Yaron Naor, Luthier

  41. #25

    Default Re: Designing a new type of double top Mandolin (DT Model)

    Cool-looking mandolin!

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