Why no Italian genre?

[DavidKOS]

We have genre sub-forums for many styles of music. Why not one for Italian?

[CelticDude]

This seems to be subsumed under Celtic, etc, which includes European Folk. If enough people wanted this as a separate category, Scott might consider adding it? You could start a second Italian revolution.

[minuteman]

I'll second that thought! Too distinct not to be a forum all to it's own.

Or at the very least, include "Italian" in the title of the "Classical, Medieval, Renaissance" forum where it all seems to end up anyway.

[Tobin]

Too many different styles of music for them all to get their own sub-forum. I'd imagine the Italian style crowd here just isn't big enough to warrant it.

Even the Old-Time style has to get lumped in with others (Tex-Mex and Cajun), and there are a lot more OT players here than Italian, from what I've seen.

[Timbofood]

Without Italian, there would be no mandolin!

[multidon]

This would be a perfect opportunity to start a new social group. It's not difficult.

[foldedpath]

Too many sub-forums make it harder to scroll through the site. But I agree that Italian music is important enough -- for the history of the instrument especially -- to get a little more recognition, instead of being lumped in with "European."

Maybe it could just be added to the sub-forum name? Drop the periods from "U.K." to save space, and call it "Celtic, UK, Nordic, Quebecois, Italian, European Folk." It would be the same number of characters as "Jazz, Swing, Blues, Bossa, Choro, Klezmer, Ragtime."

Besides, if Italian music does get its own sub-forum, then I'm going to lobby for splitting out the awful commercial word "Celtic" into something better like "Irish, Scottish, Cape Breton, Shetland, and Breton" music.

[Martin Jonas]

This would be a perfect opportunity to start a new social group. It's not difficult.

There already is one, but it's effectively defunct. The social groups are a bit of an oddity, with only one of them (the fabulous Song-A-Week group) being at all busy. Generally, there is no good reason not to post on the main forum instead.

As far as Italian is concerned, I post them to the "Celtic/.../European Folk" forum, and so do most others interested in that genre. It's usually very obvious which threads are about Italian pieces, and it's not a fabulously busy forum so we may as well continue to do so.

Martin

[DavidKOS]

Maybe it could just be added to the sub-forum name? Drop the periods from "U.K." to save space, and call it "Celtic, UK, Nordic, Quebecois, Italian, European Folk." It would be the same number of characters as "Jazz, Swing, Blues, Bossa, Choro, Klezmer, Ragtime."

That category is far too wide and the various musics are NOT related very much.

There should be a "Celtic" - British Isles - Irish - Scottish - Welsh - etc. category.

And at least Quebecois should be with the musics of the Americas

If no special category just to honor the fact that Italian music on mandolin started the whole ball rolling, at least make "European Folk" (non-Celtic) a unique category.

[eadg145]

{kidding}

I propose we just streamline the forum into 2 categories:

1) Bluegrass
2) No part o' nothing

{\kidding}

[mandroid]

I'd probably post things in the Classical Music sub forum .. Italian composers
(and, say, Partisan Rallying songs from WW2)*

though Community, a social group around this style can be done , & began by yourself.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/group.php

though contemporary Italians play all sorts of Music styles..

*heard Bella Ciao, done in a Klezmer-NewOrleans like arraignment that sounded great.

[brunello97]

It's Scott's call, I guess. My assumption is that some sub-forums might have been demand-driven, but I agree that the current list is fairly streamlined enough for easy navigation. I can see the argument for an Italian section but would not appreciate everything being Balkanized. I play mostly Italian music and I know where to find y'all…..

I would be probably satisfied with more rigorous thread naming behavior. There have probably been a half dozen different versions of "What Italian Songs Should I Play?" threads here. Instead of doing a search folks just start another thread. Just naming a thread "Italian Music" and being scrupulous about posting there might go a long way, David. Look what it has done for "Bowlbacks of Note"--probably the best comprehensive resource for information about bowl back mandolins on the web. A thread named "Italian Music of Note" that folks were rigorous about posting in could be an easy answer.

I'm not sure if the MC format allows for tagging but that might also allow a different sorting method to help find like-minded posts. It does seem that the tagging method gets pretty overused and saturated in other situations so it might not be a panacea.

i miei due centesimi,

Mick

[Scott Tichenor]

Don't mind adding a category if warranted. In 17 years of running this Forum no one asked which is telling. And yes, I've heard, "you haven't heard it because there isn't one. Build it and they will come in droves." Doesn't work that way.

Not convinced it's necessary but can be swayed if proven.

How does it not fit into:

• Classical, Medieval, Renaissance
• Celtic, U.K., Nordic, Quebecois, European Folk

And how is it so separate from similar styles already listed that it warrants a separate category? And if it was given a category, how many similar styles around the world might merit the same? See the issue?

As a forum owner I'm wary of "Forum Creep" or "Forum Bloat," the problem of listing so many categories that from a usability point it becomes overwhelming to users.

Lumping of categories is a necessity. A good part of the traditional bluegrass crowd despises anything that doesn't carry Bill Monroe's stamp of approval but lumping bluegrass and newgrass together is a necessity. They're from the roots of the same tree. Otherwise you open up a page that makes you just want to hit the back button it's so overwhelming.

Here's a request: provide links to 10-15 discussions that have occurred in the past 30 days which would be specific to just an Italian category in and of itself, and not fit into an existing Forum and I'll consider it. I can see adding "Italian" into the Classical, Medieval, Renaissance area as I think that's a fit but will await replies.

[crisscross]

how many similar styles around the world might merit the same?

For example the sub-category "German Christmas songs played Italian style" is clearly missing.


With fitting Italian into a category , I see the problem, that it has to be defined, whether it's composed mandolin music such as Calace or just songs such as "Tu vuo fa l'americano".


OK Calace belongs into the classical section, while Carusone might even find a place in the rock section.
But where to put "O sole mio"?

[DavidKOS]

{kidding}

I propose we just streamline the forum into 2 categories:

1) Bluegrass
2) No part o' nothing

{\kidding}

Makes a lot of sense in a way.

My dobro and I fit in the second category:

How does it not fit into:

• Classical, Medieval, Renaissance
• Celtic, U.K., Nordic, Quebecois, European Folk

Here's a request: provide links to 10-15 discussions that have occurred in the past 30 days which would be specific to just an Italian category in and of itself, and not fit into an existing Forum and I'll consider it. I can see adding "Italian" into the Classical, Medieval, Renaissance area as I think that's a fit but will await replies.

It fits WAY better in the Classical etc. category than any of the others, and thanks for your consideration.

[Scott Tichenor]

Classical, Italian, Medieval, Renaissance it is. Done.

[eadg145]

I'm glad this has come to an agreeable closure. Now that it's done, I'll come clean here. I've *always* been overwhelmed by the number of categories on the forum, so the way I view MC (nearly daily, sometimes more often) is via the "new posts" link. C'mon now, surely I'm not the only one?

PS: I supported a separate section because I have a personal interest in Italian mandolin music and would use such a category to discover new arrangements.

[Beanzy]

That's going to get an awful lot of folk music being stuffed into the Classical Medieval and Renaissance category.
There are several categories which cover Italian music already. Italian mandolin music covers many genres, most of what I think of as Italian would be folk music, unless you are referring to Italian school in classical playing (as against the German school playing). If it proves a popular subject it will really begin to make us look like we don't know how to categorise mandolin music.

[DavidKOS]

I just think that the Italian tradition is closer to the classical than that of many other styles.

After all, even the language used for most dynamic markings and tempo, etc. in Classical music is Italian.

[HonketyHank]

I'm glad this has come to an agreeable closure. Now that it's done, I'll come clean here. I've *always* been overwhelmed by the number of categories on the forum, so the way I view MC (nearly daily, sometimes more often) is via the "new posts" link. C'mon now, surely I'm not the only one? ........

No, there is at least one more. The only reason I go to a specific forum is to start a new thread. I count on the OP's thread topic and the 'hover the mouse to get a preview' feature to be a much more reliable indications of whether or not I want to peruse the discussion than the forum under which it was posted.

ps: almost forgot - yes, I think "Italian" being included with Classical is a better compromise than lumping it with Celtic, etc. But still a compromise. Can't please all the people all the time, though.

[Paul Cowham]

That's going to get an awful lot of folk music being stuffed into the Classical Medieval and Renaissance category.
There are several categories which cover Italian music already. Italian mandolin music covers many genres, most of what I think of as Italian would be folk music, unless you are referring to Italian school in classical playing (as against the German school playing). If it proves a popular subject it will really begin to make us look like we don't know how to categorise mandolin music.

That's a great thing about the mandolin, you can play so many sorts of music on it that it becomes impossible to make a "fair" breakdown of all the musical styles that it is comfortable with. I really like Duke Ellington's quote about music "there are two kinds of music, good music and the other kind".

[August Watters]

That's going to get an awful lot of folk music being stuffed into the Classical Medieval and Renaissance category.

Yes. But that's the reality: regional Italian folk styles are deeply intertwined with classical mandolin traditions. So if we combine conversations about Italian folk and classical strains, we might get closer to Scott's guideline: that the need for a category is determined by the number of posts.

From a historical viewpoint: Italian mandolin is not just another European genre; it's at the root of American mandolin styles because the first wave of mandolin popularity (1880-1920) coincided with the great immigration of Italians to America -- which coincided with an era of Italian virtuoso mandolin music, which was also heard across Europe. But today our awareness is focused on the American mandolin's next wave of popularity, beginning with Bill Monroe.

[crisscross]

That's going to get an awful lot of folk music being stuffed into the Classical Medieval and Renaissance category.

That was my first thought too, but the more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion, that categorizing music by genres is an approximation in most cases.
I mean Elvis singing "It's now or never": Classical, European folk or even rock'n roll?
Or fiddle tunes such as "Red haired boy": Old-Time https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nV5k6Hq4atc, Celtic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mbFHV7WNSQ or Bluegrass https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0EkURtpyRg?

Yes, it sure is a compromise to put Italian into the classical sction, but to me, it's a fair one.
And no one will keep you from posting a video of Carlo Aonzo playing "Tico Tico" in the jazz section.

[j. condino]

Thanks to all of you putting up a good fight for the Italian category; my great grandfather would have been proud to hang here today!

j.
www.condino.com

[DavidKOS]

Thank you Italian mandolin lovers!

Uh, would you guys mind checking out my own new Italian style tune?

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ndolin-Mazurka

https://soundcloud.com/david-m-brown...sca-mix-5-best