Pava F5!

[9lbShellhamer]

Look what Ellis just posted on Facebook! Pava is building an F5!

[Boilline78]

I saw this. So excited to see this F5 completed. I have a Pava on order and can't wait to get it in my hands.

[Clement Barrera-Ng]

Oh Oh Oh Oh Mine!

[9lbShellhamer]

I wonder if there will eventually be a satin, and more heavily appointed model, just like the MF and MF5? no varnish since Ellis has that Market locked.
Everything coming out of that shop is Gorgeous. Very excited about Pava.

[Dale Pauline]

Very interested. Can't wait to see a final product...and hear it as well.

Wonder what price range. I'd guess $5k-$6k.

[BrianWilliam]

Oooh, time to start saving up

[DataNick]

Poor man's Ellis?

[Ivan Kelsall]

That's an exciting prospect !. I'd often wondered if there would ever be a Pava F5 style,but discounted the idea. I think we need to forget that the Pava mandolins come from an adjacent stable to the Ellis mandolins,& consider them as a totally separate instrument brand,which,essentially they are. DataNick's ''poor man's Ellis'' above,is a logical thought,& i understand that,but i'd rather think of a Pava F5 as simply an 'alternative' choice. The Pava "A" styles have been very well received & i sincerely hope that the "F" styles make the grade as well - terrific !,
Ivan

[Ron McMillan]

Thanks to the pointer from 9lb, I immediately went over to like the Ellis Facebook page. I really want to see how the Pava F5 looks when it is done. Like Ivan, I'm a big admirer of the instruments coming out of the Ellis workshop, but unlike Ellis-owning Ivan, I suspect that the two product lines probably share more similarities than differences What's certain is that the Pava brand was a stroke of genius from Ellis Mandolins, an instant hit, and deservedly so.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Hi Ron - I'm sure that there are 'similarities' in the Ellis / Pava builds,but there have to be enough differences to keep both names viable as 'separate' brands. I'm pretty sure the forthcoming Pava F5 is going to be a hit,& deservedly so,
Ivan

[Tobin]

Awesome! I love my Ellis F5 and my wife loves her Pava, and we had been hoping Pava would come out with an F5 style. My wife really prefers the ergonomics of an F5, for both the strap placement and the body point when playing seated. We even asked Tom and Pava about it when we were at their shop last year, and didn't get the sense that this was something they were looking to do at that time. Maybe they gave in to popular demand.

I need another mandolin like I need a hole in the head, but I have no doubt this will be a truly outstanding instrument.

[Relio]

Reminds me of Rolex and Tudor watches. I've never played a Pava, but if they're anything like an Ellis - sweet! I like the inlay on the headstock. It would be nice to see it in a varnish finish.

[DataNick]

...It would be nice to see it in a varnish finish.

Now that would pique my interest, and though Mr. Ellis & Ms. Pava do their own carving graduations respectively as clarified by Mr. Ellis some time ago; I'm sure there exists some "influence" between the two in process, technique, etc. that results in a similar "voicing" among both product lines; hence the "Poor man's Ellis" description, which to me is a good thing!

It would be hard for me to believe that a Pava is voiced like a Gibson, SilverAngel, Kentucky, etc., and having played Clement's, it did "sound" very much like the Ellis mandolins I've heard up close. I would expect it to be very similar to an Ellis. Tobin perhaps could offer his insights as the "owner" of both lines.

[Tobin]

Tobin perhaps could offer his insights as the "owner" of both lines.

I do find them to be quite similar in tone and playability, at least when compared to other brands/models. When they were new and I was still playing them in, I found very little difference. Very similar voicing and character. Over time, as they have matured and I have grown familiar with them (and as my playing style has progressed, I like to think), I hear distinct differences. But both still have what I think of as a distinct Ellis voicing that I don't hear in any other brands. Despite being graduated by different people, much of the construction is the same.

The Pava has kept a very clear, ringing, open, loud and resonant sound, but still with a sweet voice that's not brash or overly bright. The resonance, of all things, continues to amaze me. It feels "alive" in my hands. I think it's more suited to the mid-range and high end. I mean, it has great chop and a strong bottom end too, but its best feature IMHO has to be the mid- and top-end.

The tone of my Ellis has, to my ears, gotten a bit 'darker', which I really love. It has great overtones and such, but there's some quality about it that I can't quite describe which sets it apart from the direction the Pava has gone. I had never really thought of it as a bassy mandolin until someone mentioned that they thought Ellis mandolins were bassy, but now I do hear it. And I spend more time playing the low end and mid-range than the high end, so it suits me fine. Last time I went to my regular jam (I haven't been in a month or two), one of the guitar players that sits across from me made the comment that my Ellis keeps getting louder and louder every time I come. Not sure if that was a compliment or a subtle request to back off a little, but my Ellis sure doesn't lack for punch or volume.

But both are superb mandolins, of course. And I have no doubt that part of their differences revolve around the fact that one's an A style while the other is an F style. My Ellis has a finger rest and ToneGard while the Pava doesn't. My Ellis has a lot more fret wear, since I play pretty aggressively on it and spend more time on it, and I think that has a big effect on tone. Different finishes, different string choices (we stick with GHS A270s on the Pava but EXP74CMs on the Ellis) etc., etc. It's really apples and oranges in terms of appointments, neck profiles, and all that. One wouldn't really expect them to sound the exact same even if they had the same name on the headstock.

Interestingly enough, a couple of months ago my wife handed her Pava to a banjo player at a public jam, who happens to also be a surprisingly good Monroe-style mandolin player. I was stunned at the sounds coming out of that Pava when he did a mandolin break on Foggy Mountain Breakdown. Sounded like a completely different mandolin in his hands. But man, it sure sounded good! Despite its normal sweet singing voice, that Pava was barking out the notes.

To be honest, I've come to the conclusion that fine mandolins like these will become whatever you want them to be. So much depends on the player, choices in picks and strings, style of music, and other variables. I believe that an instrument crafted with the level of expertise of a Pava or Ellis will take on the character of the player over time, making any generalizations inaccurate. Perhaps that's what really makes for a quality instrument, after all? It's not giving you sounds that are so much dependent on its limitations or construction issues; it's giving you your own sound that's as free from material/construction issues as possible. I dunno, just thinking out loud.

[DataNick]

I do find them to be quite similar in tone and playability, at least when compared to other brands/models. When they were new and I was still playing them in, I found very little difference. Very similar voicing and character. Over time, as they have matured and I have grown familiar with them (and as my playing style has progressed, I like to think), I hear distinct differences. But both still have what I think of as a distinct Ellis voicing that I don't hear in any other brands. Despite being graduated by different people, much of the construction is the same...

Thanks Tobin!

And taking into account the differences between the two that you describe in your post, because of your observations above, and because it's coming out of Tom Ellis' shop (so a level of quality and build characteristics exists that he is comfortable ascribing his name recognition to) I still stand by my observation, that a Pava could be considered a "Poor man's Ellis"...and btw, I'd take one gladly!

[Randolph]

Perhaps an Ellis is a "rich man's Pava."

[Tobin]

I still stand by my observation, that a Pava could be considered a "Poor man's Ellis"...and btw, I'd take one gladly!

I wouldn't disagree with that in spirit. It's the closest you'll get to an Ellis without buying an Ellis, that's for sure.

But I think calling it a poor man's Ellis sort of unintentionally does a disservice to the Pava line, just because of the nature of that phrase. As if it's just a cheaper or "next best thing" version if you can't afford the "real deal". That's how some folks tend to take that phrase when used in other contexts, even if you didn't mean it that way. It sounds like "budget-priced knock-off", when it is anything but that.

I think the Pava line deserves to stand on its own merits without any "lesser than Ellis" implications. Recognizing, of course, that it comes from the same hands as the Ellis line, but that it's not in any way inferior. It's just Pava's own line, with her graduations in the top plates, and slightly different choices in the finish, etc.

The lower cost is due to the fact that this line has only been out a couple of years and is still establishing its place in the market as separate from Ellis A-styles. They don't use the ultra-fancy figured woods on these, or the higher-end tuners/tailpieces, or the really fancy inlays like some of the Ellis models. So cost is kept well below the Ellis line for now. That does make it a bargain, considering the quality of the instrument and the reputation of the people who build it. But I still think it should stand alone on its own merits without the comparisons to being a budget-Ellis copy.

[DataNick]

Tobin,

Point taken, however the "Spirit" of my comment is in relation to the Brentrup "Poor Man's Loar" and certainly none would think of that model Brentrup as being a "budget knock off"...semantics my brother! Not all of us can drop $11K on a mando so if a Pava F5 comes in around $5-$6K, I'm good with the "Poor Man's Ellis" moniker...what's the deal with that?

No hate here, just sayin...

[yankees1]

I thought I was finished adding any additional mandolins to my collection but---------------------maybe a Pava is in my future !

[Dale Pauline]

According to Denis Vance from The Mandolin Shop, list will be $6499 and available around the first of February. They have it listed on their website, but the picture is of an A style.

[Dale Pauline]

Here is the link. The A style picture has been taken down since last night.

https://themandolinstore.com/product...el-f-mandolin/

[DataNick]

According to Denis Vance from The Mandolin Shop, list will be $6499 and available around the first of February..

Well that tears it! Certainly not a Poor Man's Ellis at that price, more like a Middle Class Man's Ellis...just funnin' guys, just funnin'...carry on!

[almeriastrings]

I'm sure it will be a very fine mandolin....as Tobin rightly says, the technical quality will certainly be there, and..

"To be honest, I've come to the conclusion that fine mandolins like these will become whatever you want them to be. So much depends on the player, choices in picks and strings, style of music, and other variables. I believe that an instrument crafted with the level of expertise of a Pava or Ellis will take on the character of the player over time, making any generalizations inaccurate. Perhaps that's what really makes for a quality instrument, after all?"


A point I really agree with - you "grow into" these instruments. Certainly I have done with mine... it sort of defines the phrase "picking and grinning" because that's how you feel when you have it in your hands and hear the sound it is putting out.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Tobin's remarks about the banjo player who played his wife's Pava really struck a chord with me - only the other way around. One of the guys who works in one of Manchester's largest & longest established music stores is an excellent 'classical' mandolin player. I took my Ellis strung up with DR MD11's on it down for him to have a look at shortly after i'd bought it. Despite the Ellis being geared up for Bluegrass,he produced some of the most subtle & sublime tones i've ever heard from a mandolin. It really does come down to 'who's' playing an instrument very often that produces an entirely new 'tonal spectrum'.
It'll be interesting to see when a Pava F5 reaches the UK shores & at what cost,
Ivan

[DataNick]

You know guys I was just thinking (I know, bad move there...LOL!) that's an interesting price point because at $6499 that $900 more than a brand new F5G, it's the same exact price as a Weber Rawhide, $1K more than a Collings MF Deluxe, but cheaper than a Collings Fern; and right in the neighborhood of several boutique F5 mandolin prices. The buyer in that range will have some interesting choices and the best bet will definitely be to go to a place like TMS and play a bunch of them. This looks very cool!