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Thread: Mando, Banjo or Zouk

  1. #1

    Default Mando, Banjo or Zouk

    Hi everyone, first post here. I've been itching to get involved in the local traditional scene but don't know where to start. I want to take up a new instrument (already play guitar) and start practicing some tunes by myself. I'm just not sure which instrument, it's between mandolin, bouzouki, and tenor banjo. I know this forum might be a little biased 😁. Mandolin sounds nice and can do BG as well, but it's cramped and quiet. Bouzouki has the advantage of a similar scale to guitar and songs can be played on it, but some say tunes are difficult. Banjo has a great tone and the perfect scale length, but I don't think I'll be playing airs on it. Perfect world would be all three, but I'm on a €250 budget, so any advice? (Sorry if this is the wrong place , feel free to move it.)

  2. #2

    Default Re: Mando, Banjo or Zouk

    How about a ukulele?

  3. #3

    Default Re: Mando, Banjo or Zouk

    Quote Originally Posted by Seattle View Post
    How about a ukulele?
    I'm willing to risk my reputation with a banjo, but I'm afraid a ukulele would destroy it

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  5. #4
    Registered User bruce.b's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mando, Banjo or Zouk

    If you take up tenor banjo you'll also be able to play tenor guitar. Airs, chord melodies and slow tunes sound great on tenor guitar. Everything sounds great on tenor guitar, IMO. I mostly play fiddle tunes, yet right now I'm working on a chord melody for Strawberry Fields Forever. It all fits.

    I primarily play tenor guitar, but it's an effortless transition to tenor banjo for me. I play the same tunes and often play them exactly the same way. The biggest difference is sustain when moving from one to the other, and to a lesser extent playing chords.

  6. #5

    Default Re: Mando, Banjo or Zouk

    Im with bruce b.

    Im in Ireland and at all the sessions Ive been to tenor banjo is much more popular than mandolin. I rarely see a zouk or the like.

    250 euro will get you a low tier beginner instrument new or a decent beginner instrument second hand. I have bought from ebay and from classfieds here with good results. If your in Ireland prices on donedeal are inflated.

  7. #6
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mando, Banjo or Zouk

    mandolin, bouzouki, and tenor banjo
    Pick one, you can tune them all in fifths. Tuned that way if you play one the fingering will be the same on all of them. I agree the tenor banjo should be the cheapest.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
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    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
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  8. #7
    Registered User mikeyes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mando, Banjo or Zouk

    These are three entirely different instruments in spite of being tuned in fifths (Zouk may be in GDAD.) The feel is different, the techniques, while similar as a beginner, are also different at intermediate and expert levels and the tonality is entirely different.

    I started on mandolin - it was a lot quieter in as session and my mistakes were not noticed as much - and transitioned to banjo when I had better chops. Since then I have taken my mandolin to a different place (a' la Marla Fibish) and only play my OM and not a zouk which is more of an chordal and counterpoint instrument in Irish music (it can be used easily for melody too.)

    So you take your pick and travel on the path of your choice.

    Mike Keyes

  9. #8

    Default Re: Mando, Banjo or Zouk

    Thanks for the replies, I'm leaning towards the bouzouki to be honest, mainly because it's a wee bit different but there are a few talented local players to learn from. If I can get to grips with that I think I'll give the banjo a go. It's a bit of a slippery slope I think.

  10. #9
    Registered User zoukboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mando, Banjo or Zouk

    Well, if you really want to play traditional Irish music I would suggest tinwhistle and/or flute and/or fiddle. I play mandolin, tenor banjo, and bouzouki (as well as guitar, and tenor guitar), and have for 33 years and have been pretty successful at it, but if you want to go to the heart of the tradition you will need to play one of the core instruments (uilleann pipes, whistle, flute, fiddle, concertina, button accordion). Whistle is cheap and you can do everything essential to Irish music on it (and the skills transfer to flute and pipes), flute is more expensive but there are reasonably priced options for beginners, fiddle is ubiquitous and can be had for a few $100s.

    The main consideration would be having a teacher and a few people to play with regularly.

    Just my 2 cents worth.

  11. #10
    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mando, Banjo or Zouk

    I agree with Roger above, although maybe that's heresy on a mandolin-centric forum. It's why I started to learn Irish flute a couple of years ago... and wish I was making better progress with it, but it's not the easiest instrument to pick up late in life.

    There is a range of expression available in the traditional, core instruments in Irish trad -- the pipes, flutes, whistles, fiddles, concertinas and other free reeds -- that simply isn't available on any of the fretted instruments being discussed in this thread. Leaving aside the O'Carolan harp tradition, the essential sound of the dance-oriented music is historically based on finger articulations on top of a sustaining note. The sustain itself can also be varied in dynamics with bow pressure, diaphragm pressure on flute, or bellows pressure on a free reed instrument (but not on whistle or pipes, which need more finger fiddly bits). Most of the core instruments can also play notes between the frets that are part of the tradition, like the slightly sharpened "Piper's C," which we can't do on a mandolin but I hear a lot of fiddlers and fluters doing that in sessions.

    The things we can do, like plucked treble ornaments, hammer-ons and pull-offs are pale imitations of this range of expression. But it's better than nothing. If you ignore the articulations and just play the notes of the tune like you'd see it on sheet music, you're not really playing Irish music (IMO).

    What we do have on the fretted/plucked instruments is a certain percussive quality, and the ability to use partial harmonization here and there. The question of harmony is somewhat fraught in this music, but I figure if Kevin Burke and other fiddlers can touch an adjacent string for a doublestop here and there, and if the Uilleann pipers can toss in notes and partial harmonies with their regulators, then I can do that too on a mandolin. It's what keeps me from just focusing on the flute full-time; that ability to toss in a bit of harmony here and there on mandolin.

    BTW, on the question of "which instrument" if you're going to play a fretted one -- while the mandolin clearly has a disadvantage in volume, I think it has one advantage over the longer-scale instruments: It "speaks quickly" compared to anything with a longer scale. I can play faster and keep up with the fiddlers more easily than I can on my octave mandolin, due to the shorter movements of my left hand and fingers, and also the quick response and attack of the higher-pitched note. The tenor banjo can probably also be considered an instrument that "speaks quickly" due to the single course strings. Together with the volume, it may be why it's the more popular fretted melody instrument in sessions.

    I just can't bring myself to play a banjo. Can't do it. I'll lock myself in the shed for a few more years and see if I can't do something with this flute instead.

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  13. #11
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mando, Banjo or Zouk

    Yes they are different instruments, the feel, the stretch, and all that I get but in the end the fingering is the same unless you're in a different tuning. If you know one you can move between them.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

  14. #12
    Registered User Pete Braccio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mando, Banjo or Zouk

    Since you have some good zouk players near you that can teach you some things, getting a zouk is not a bad way to go. The down side is that decent zouks carry stiff price tags. Also, you don't really see them used in other styles of music.

    As for Roger's suggestion of getting into the music with one of the core instruments, I agree with that as well. The beauty of this is that you can get a pretty good penny whistle for less than $50 and learn that while playing a stringed instrument that is close to what you play already. Look for a tweaked whistle or one of the entry level hand made ones as opposed to a factory made whistle and you should be good.
    Pete Braccio

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  15. #13

    Default Re: Mando, Banjo or Zouk

    Thanks for all the advice. I was one of the dunces who could never play the tin whistle in national school, but I've been trying to learn a few tunes these last few weeks and I'm enjoying it. I've always wanted to give the fiddle a go, but would it be hard to learn at sixteen? My thinking was to get started playing the music in familiar territory and branch out once I get some experience under my belt.

  16. #14

    Default Re: Mando, Banjo or Zouk

    While fiddle is a challenging instrument - generally proportional to its expressive capacity - beginning fiddle at 16 is not as difficult as beginning fiddle at 26, 36, 46, etc..

    What do you want to do in 'getting involved in the local folk scene'? Play in sessions? Play at dances? Sing/play trad songs?

    Zouk will be similar to guitar in more respects than others - and thereby will perhaps be your quickest entrée into playing (mostly rhythm/'back-up') in sessions, which is not a bad way to go. But we (all us old codgers) would probably all recommend that you begin learning melodies (tunes), and perhaps a better way to go with that is with the 'trad' instruments (go with a fiddle erhem! ).

    A banjo is a very good instrument to play if you wish to be heard. But the learning curve is steep - in that there's nowhere to hide with that - it's essentially a melodic drum, and a loud one at that - your playing must be precise.

    If you want to play airs, start learning harp, or box (or fiddle )

    *Oh btw, something else - depending on your inclinations - is a hammered dulcimer, which is a very effective instrument for airs, pibrochs, solo playing of trad dance tunes, etc. This is among my most favorite instrument for the performing I do (small 'concert' settings) - like a mandolin on steroids. I play harp too, but this is often not particularly effective for performing as it requires much pre-tuning (and warm hands!) - which I want to minimize for my audiences' sake. I play my harp tunes on HD, along with the trad session tunes, some modal/textural improvising, etc. If you're into playing solo, it's a great instrument - lots of sound, ornament, filigree, etc. I like to take a HD and a fiddle - excellent complements! Between the two, I can cover a lot of ground - I need my airs and pibrochs
    Last edited by catmandu2; Nov-22-2015 at 6:39pm.

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  18. #15

    Default Re: Mando, Banjo or Zouk

    One of each... and a mandola... and a cittern...

  19. #16
    Registered User Bren's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mando, Banjo or Zouk

    A mandolin is not the ideal session instrument, but it will be a friend and companion for life.

    Advantages:
    You can practise quietly almost anywhere, including in a shared house.
    It has a sweet appealing solo sound.
    But also a percussive rhythmic sound.
    Blends well with other instruments and even other mandolins.
    Can harmonise with itself.
    You can explore classical music ...
    ... and "folk" music of many lands with it. Especially prominent in bluegrass, Italian trad and Brazilian choro music.
    Perfect travel companion - light and small form. Fits in aircraft cabin lockers, trains, buses, taxis, backpack while cycling or walking without being a burden, or embarrassing like a ukulele.

    Eventually you will get a good mandolin that develops tone and volume and can be heard at a session anyway.
    Bren

  20. #17
    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mando, Banjo or Zouk

    Quote Originally Posted by Bren View Post
    Eventually you will get a good mandolin that develops tone and volume and can be heard at a session anyway.
    And if you play in a Scottish session with smallpipes and reelpipes, they're often playing tunes in A mixo where you can shift down an octave on mandolin, play the tune on the G and D strings, and still be heard. Or at least hear yourself!

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    Registered User Carl Robin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mando, Banjo or Zouk

    I play mandolin, and octave mandolin/bouzouki. At the session I have started going to the other instruments are so strong I couldn't hear myself play. So I got a tenor banjo--tuned the same way, and the sound of it cuts through the other instruments, and is audible. Never thought I'd play the banjo, but now I'm glad to have tried it.

  22. #19
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    Default Re: Mando, Banjo or Zouk

    It depends what you want to use it for. Obviously generalizations, but...

    If you primarily want to play accompaniment, get a bouzouki.
    If you want to play melody in sessions, get a tenor banjo.
    If you want more versatility, get a mandolin. It can be hard to hear in a session, but you can play melody or accompaniment easily and it's more useful in other genres.

    You're likely to change your mind about ideal scale length as well. Guitar comparisons don't really work well. Mandolin, tenor banjo, and bouzouki are (generally) tuned in fifths, so you need to cover more frets than on a guitar. I have decent size hands (and play guitar) and definitely prefer the shorter mandolin scale for fifths tuning. Less fourth finger, less shifting, and less stretching. It's nice to be able to hit the high B without having to shift. That note is way up there on a bouzouki, especially in GDAD tuning.

  23. #20

    Default Re: Mando, Banjo or Zouk

    Thanks for the advice everyone, I'm going with bouzouki (with a bit of whistle thrown in for melody). Songs are as big a part of the local tradition as tunes are and it'd be nice to be able to dabble in both. Down the line I'll probably start dabbling with the mandolin (and banjo and fiddle and flute, pipes, concertina, dulcimer ect.), but a nice bouzouki is my gut instinct. Should be getting it around December 25th, give or take

  24. #21

    Default Re: Mando, Banjo or Zouk

    Perfect choices Enjoy!

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