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Thread: Paula's Vintage Kay learning project- Cracks and Separations

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    Default Paula's Vintage Kay learning project- Cracks and Separations

    So onto cracks and separations.

    The first picture shows the top plate where it meets the sides by the endplate.

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    It looks to me like the sides never met properly (the heights of the two sides was off) and they just filled the gap with hide glue. Should I try to fill this in with a glued in sliver of wood or is there a better way to resolve this issue?

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    Similar issue by the heel cap.

    and finally, this crack on the top where the pick guard attaches. Can I clean that out using the steam needle, let it dry a few days and then glue it? Do I need to try and back it with cloth on the inside (working through the f hole)?

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    Again, thanks for all your kind and helpful advise.

    Paula

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    Default Re: Paula's Vintage Kay learning project- Cracks and Separations

    Are there gaps between the plates and the blocks? The visible gap can be filled with a splinter, but if there is a separation between the block(s) and plate(s) they need to be cleaned of old glue and crud before regluing. These areas are stressed and must be securely glued.

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    Default Re: Paula's Vintage Kay learning project- Cracks and Separations

    I'm going to assume that the linings and blocks (what Michael was asking about) inside the mandolin are level and are (or at least were) securely glued to the top and back plates, and the out-of-level look we see in the picture is not a structural concern. If so, that's the sort of thing that a manufacturer of inexpensive instruments can fill with anything (wood filler) and then "paint over" with a dark, sprayed sunburst. Saves money! On a somewhat higher level model, the same thing could be remedied by a binding and no one would ever know.
    If you are going to stain the instrument a dark color or a 'burst, you can do the same. If you want to add a splinter to try to match the side material and finish with a light color, that becomes more of a challenge. Fitting the filler stick is not a big problem, but getting the wood to match can be. Matching grain direction exactly is more important than a color match. As long as the splinter is lighter colored than the side wood, it can be darkened (with dye) to match, but if the grain runs out differently than the grain of the side, it will "flash" differently in the light and stand out even if the color matches.
    In keeping with the learning experience aspect of this, this would be a good time to try your hand and eye at grain matching some little filler splints to see if you can get them to "hide in plain sight".

    Check, with a thin blade like a palette knife, to see that the top and back are securely glued to the rim. IIRC, you mentioned some separations, but there may be others, and a little probing with the thin blade can sometimes reveal them when they aren't immediately apparent. Also, sometimes we'll find places that pop loose easily and we get the chance to re-glue them before they fail in use.

    As for the crack at the f-hole, I'd clean it with distilled water and a syringe. Hold an absorbent rag inside, under the crack, and squirt a little distilled water on the outside of the crack. The water will bead up and be unpredictable and uncontrollable for a while, but keep doing it and the water will eventually find it's way into the crack. As the "surface tension" (for lack of a better description) starts to dissipate, the water will eventually flow freely through the crack and into the rag, and it will clean the crack about as well as anything you can do.
    What is the relative humidity where you are working? You may well be able to swell the crack closed (after cleaning) by increasing the moisture content of the wood by raising the relative humidity. If so, the crack can be glued (with HHG) and should be in good shape. Personally, I would not add fabric to the inside. If I felt the need (crack won't close completely and tightly) I might add a cleat near the f-hole opening, but if the crack closes well I'd just glue it.
    Fabric glued to the underside of the top presents a problem for future repair people if the crack opens or if it gets cracked again.

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    Default Re: Paula's Vintage Kay learning project- Cracks and Separations

    So, it looks like most of the areas that are showing gaps are structurally sound and have just lost glue filling the gap from the sloppy construction.

    Once I removed the old finish, I discovered the sides were a nice fish eyed maple. I'd like for this figuring to be visible in the finished mandolin. I'm considering instead of trying to match the wood with splinters, the idea of adding binding. The finish is off, the neck will soon be off and I do generally prefer a bound instrument for the looks and the added protection.

    I will probably be slowing down a little as I need to collect a few more tools (like the stew mac dremel router attachment) and I only have a limited budget.

    Thanks again,

    Paula

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    Default Re: Paula's Vintage Kay learning project- Cracks and Separations

    You may also fix the crack by taking a thin plane shaving and sliding it in the crack and then wicking in hot hide glue. Try and get a good fit for the crack and shaving, but don't glue the shaving until it is in or it will get whimpy and not want to go into the crack. It will be thin so it will wick glue, but you will have to have a sharp plane to get a nice long thin shaving.
    THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE JUST FOR YOUR SMILE!

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    Default Re: Paula's Vintage Kay learning project- Cracks and Separations

    That's a great idea. I think a shaving would be the perfect size.

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    Default Re: Paula's Vintage Kay learning project- Cracks and Separations

    I'm really enjoying this thread and soaking up the knowledge provided by the experts. I'll almost certainly never have any use for it, but that's not the point.

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    Default Re: Paula's Vintage Kay learning project- Cracks and Separations

    That Kay will be better now than it came from the factory! Much like antique cars once restored. But, hey, you're having fun and learning!

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    Default Re: Paula's Vintage Kay learning project- Cracks and Separations

    So, The neck is removed and I am working on the f-hole crack. I made a shaving using a hand plane and here it is sitting in the crack. I'm waiting for my hot glue to warm up and I will gently add glue along the length of the crack on either side of the shaving. I'm thinking I will apply it with a toothpick after gently warming the area with a hair dryer.

    On a second note, you can see what appears to be a laminated piece around the f-hole as though the top was laminated. When I examine it using an inspection mirror this only extends about half an inch beyond the f-hole. Was this a common practice to reinforce the f-hole?

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    I'm glad there are people enjoying the thread. I was starting to think I might being a pain in the derriere.

    Cheers,

    Paula

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    Default Re: Paula's Vintage Kay learning project- Cracks and Separations

    I haven't seen too many of these Kays that were not laminated, sides, back, and top.

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    Default Re: Paula's Vintage Kay learning project- Cracks and Separations

    Quote Originally Posted by pointpergame View Post
    I haven't seen too many of these Kays that were not laminated, sides, back, and top.
    And yet this one is clearly not laminated on the top and bottom (other than the localised lamination around the f-holes). I don't know about the sides as they aren't visible.

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    Cheers,

    Paula

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    Default Re: Paula's Vintage Kay learning project- Cracks and Separations

    Quote Originally Posted by Paula Buls View Post
    And yet this one is clearly not laminated on the top and bottom (other than the localised lamination around the f-holes). I don't know about the sides as they aren't visible.

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ID:	141115 Cheers, Paula
    I'm not 100% certain that is maple? But it could be.

    That is a pic of the sides right? Sometimes birch looks a bit like that?

    As to solid versus laminate -- do you have a small mirror and light? Like a dentist's mirror with a handle and an LED light? If so can you see the same "bird's eyes" on the inside as the outside?
    Bernie
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    Default Re: Paula's Vintage Kay learning project- Cracks and Separations

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    I'm not 100% certain that is maple? But it could be.

    That is a pic of the sides right? Sometimes birch looks a bit like that?

    As to solid versus laminate -- do you have a small mirror and light? Like a dentist's mirror with a handle and an LED light? If so can you see the same "bird's eyes" on the inside as the outside?
    The inside was pretty dusty and not sanded to the same degree so at first it was harder to tell. I dampened a swab and using long forceps was able to clean a section and confirm not only was there bird's eye figuring on the inside, but was able to see where features in the grain matched inside and out. So yeah, it looks like solid sides.

    Birch huh. I'm not as familiar with identifying different species and the only species I was familiar with that had bird's eyes was maple. Is there a way I could tell the difference? Is birch softer than maple. I had always thought of maple as fairly hard but this sands fairly easily.

    -Paula

    BTW, I have filled in the crack. It's not as invisible as I had hoped. I think my replacement shaving was not quite the right color. That and the wood around the crack was a little more stained than I was able to correct. While I'm not entirely satisfied with it, it will be under the pick guard. Guess, I'll just have to keep practicing. I'll probably have to by more cheapo garage sale mandolines. Uh oh, MAS!

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    Default Re: Paula's Vintage Kay learning project- Cracks and Separations

    Quote Originally Posted by Paula Buls View Post
    The inside was pretty dusty and not sanded to the same degree so at first it was harder to tell. I dampened a swab and using long forceps was able to clean a section and confirm not only was there bird's eye figuring on the inside, but was able to see where features in the grain matched inside and out. So yeah, it looks like solid sides.

    Birch huh. I'm not as familiar with identifying different species and the only species I was familiar with that had bird's eyes was maple. Is there a way I could tell the difference? Is birch softer than maple. I had always thought of maple as fairly hard but this sands fairly easily.

    -Paula

    BTW, I have filled in the crack. It's not as invisible as I had hoped. I think my replacement shaving was not quite the right color. That and the wood around the crack was a little more stained than I was able to correct. While I'm not entirely satisfied with it, it will be under the pick guard. Guess, I'll just have to keep practicing. I'll probably have to by more cheapo garage sale mandolines. Uh oh, MAS!

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    Its possible that it is maple but I've seen birch that looks similar. Is the back the same wood?

    Birch was often used as a "discount" substitute for maple.

    For example most Gibson F-2s were birch back and sides while the same albeit fancier instrument, the F-4, had maple B & S in addition to more inlay and binding.

    It must mean something good that it is solid woods? Maybe Kay had a premium line of mandolins?

    The fill is not bad -- it looks better than before and now at least it is closed and solid.
    Bernie
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    Due to current budgetary restrictions the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off -- sorry about the inconvenience.

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    Default Re: Paula's Vintage Kay learning project- Cracks and Separations

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    Its possible that it is maple but I've seen birch that looks similar. Is the back the same wood?

    Birch was often used as a "discount" substitute for maple.

    For example most Gibson F-2s were birch back and sides while the same albeit fancier instrument, the F-4, had maple B & S in addition to more inlay and binding.

    It must mean something good that it is solid woods? Maybe Kay had a premium line of mandolins?

    The fill is not bad -- it looks better than before and now at least it is closed and solid.
    I bet you're right about it being birch. I can't imagine this being that premium. It had painted on binding.

    I am considering continuing my education by adding on binding. I need to wait to order a premium dremel router base from Stew Mac.

    Cheers,

    Paula

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    Default Re: Paula's Vintage Kay learning project- Cracks and Separations

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    ...Is the back the same wood?
    To my eye, the back is not the same wood. It certainly doesn't have the bird's eye figuring of the sides.

    -Paula

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    Default Re: Paula's Vintage Kay learning project- Cracks and Separations

    I have a guitar from ca 1920, it's called an "Encore Lustre", stenciled headstock, and by no means would this have been a "premium" guitar in my book. I'm not an expert in vintage instruments, but a long-time professional finisher and woodworker. I believe would have been a fairly cheap, pre-war guitar, yet top, back and sides are solid maple. The guitar had a natural finish when I got it, and was unplayable. I removed the neck, cut a gaping hole in the top, and made a resonator guitar out of it.

    Point is, this is a cheap, stenciled, pre-war guitar, presumably from an American builder, and solid maple. Yours also appears to be solid maple judging from the photographs. I'd bet on it.

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    Default Re: Paula's Vintage Kay learning project- Cracks and Separations

    1920 Encore Lustre with original finish, solid maple all around, painted "binding" and sound hole stencil; second photo shows the maple top with seal coat.

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    Default Re: Paula's Vintage Kay learning project- Cracks and Separations

    FWIW, it looks like maple to me.

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    Default Re: Paula's Vintage Kay learning project- Cracks and Separations

    Quote Originally Posted by sunburst View Post
    FWIW, it looks like maple to me.
    Sounds like the consensus is maple -- just for the sake of completeness here is an example of a piece of bird's eye birch!
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    Bernie
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    Default Re: Paula's Vintage Kay learning project- Cracks and Separations

    FWIW, it looks like burl birch to me. (Although, it could be many things besides birch, but it definitely looks like burl.)

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    Default Re: Paula's Vintage Kay learning project- Cracks and Separations

    Burl
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    Default Re: Paula's Vintage Kay learning project- Cracks and Separations

    Yep, looks like solid. The "finding a bird's eye feature inside and out" is good detective work. Solid always sounds better than laminated. Maybe I should watch the absolutes. "Almost" always.

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    Default Re: Paula's Vintage Kay learning project- Cracks and Separations

    If you are going to use a dremel as a router one thing i do is take it apart and put scotch tape in the bearing races to get them tight and eliminate any wobble it might have. I use mine for saddle slots too and i want it as accurate as i can get it.
    THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE JUST FOR YOUR SMILE!

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    Default Re: Paula's Vintage Kay learning project- Cracks and Separations

    That's a great tip!

    Thanks,

    Paula

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