Flatiron Festivals??

[Willie Poole]

Just a few questions: Did Flatiron even make the Festival model while in Bozeman?

Did Gibson make any other Flatiron model(s) after moving them to Nashville?

Any ideas on why Gibson made two mandolins pretty much alike with the F-5G and the Flatiron Festival in Nashville?

I guess I could have done the research myself but this computer isn`t what it is cracked up to what it should/could be...

Thanks...Willie

[allenhopkins]

... Did Flatiron even make the Festival model while in Bozeman?...

Well, here's a Festival that the seller dates to 1992, which precedes the move to Nashville in 1996.

I'm pretty sure Gibson made Flatiron Performer models in Nashville, after the move.

[noah finn]

Paging Data Nick....paging Data Nick...

[Josh Levine]

We need Data, Nick

[pickinNgrinnin]

Just a few questions: Did Flatiron even make the Festival model while in Bozeman?

Did Gibson make any other Flatiron model(s) after moving them to Nashville?

Any ideas on why Gibson made two mandolins pretty much alike with the F-5G and the Flatiron Festival in Nashville?

I guess I could have done the research myself but this computer isn`t what it is cracked up to what it should/could be...

Thanks...Willie

The Flatiron Festival was made during their run in Montana. It was made with a Mortise and Tenon neck joint and what they called an integrated fretboard. It wasn't an elevated fretboard as it was carved into the top of the Mandolin. They did this to cut back on production costs, a labor saving step. The Montana Festival also had more bling on the headstock.

After the move to Nashville, Gibson still made the Festival F but they switched the design to a dovetail neck joint and an elevated fretboard. It has a little less bling and binding compared to its Montana counterpart. Flatiron in Nashville also made the Performer A and an Artist F.

As to why Gibson made the Festival F and the F5G that were very similar in construction, graduations, etc. I can't recall that part of an email conversation I had with Charlie Derrington. He did say that it didn't make financial sense to build 2 very similar instruments and to sell one for significantly less money. Perhaps it was just a matter of carrying on the Flatiron line when they moved to Nashville. The Nashville Artist F was tone bar braced and was higher priced so the Festival was the "entry" F in that line. They were made in the same shop as the Gibson's. Unfortunately, Gibson made a decision to end the US made Flatiron line and I've seen some that were being made in China. A sad ending for a Mandolin line with great history.

[DataNick]

+1 to pickinNgrinnin,

On Willie's question about why did they make 2 mandolins alike basically, I'll add to pickinNgrinn's thorough answer that I'm guessing that they didn't want to initially dish the Flatiron customer base so to save money by consolidating the line to 4 models made sense; and then they realized that they were losing profits to themselves by selling the same mandolin at one price and then another substantially lower. Flatirons in Bozeman were made to different specs in a completely different jig/tooling environment. After the move to Nashville in consolidating all mandolins to one methodology of production, a re-tool was required and thus Flatirons are no longer distinctly different than Gibsons; on the contrary, they're the same.

[noah finn]

Thanks to pickinngrinnin and Nick for answers.

One question are Nashville Flatirons considered superior to Bozeman or visa versa?

[DataNick]

Thanks to pickinngrinnin and Nick for answers.

One question are Nashville Flatirons considered superior to Bozeman or visa versa?

I would say based on my preferences that I would consider any integrated fingerboard design (some Bozeman Flatirons:Festival & Performer I believe) to result in less volume...of course you would have to validate individual mandos but that's been my anecdotal experience, and therefore I have no interest in a mandolin with an integrated fretboard. Bozeman Flatirons also had the different neck joint design (mortise-tenon), which makes a difference for some. You also have to delineate the different Bozeman eras as things were different during the Carlson era as opposed to Gibson era...I know it sounds like the same ole answer but I would look at a mandolin individually for it's characteristics and use brand feautures/nuances/history as a guide on what I should be seeing, but remain open to the possibilities of an instrument on its own merits.

[Steve Lavelle]

I've often wondered about the integrated fingerboard design on my Flatiron and whether all that extra wood in the top had an effect on the sound (level and tone). Thanks for the insight. Maybe someday I'll be able to afford one of those newfangled designs. The MAS is willing but the wallet is weak.

[EdHanrahan]

... why Gibson made two mandolins pretty much alike with the F-5G and the Flatiron Festival in Nashville?

I've sort of assumed it was the same reason that folks have made essentially identical things like the Ford Mustang & Mercury Cougar, the Chevy Camaro & Pontiac Firebird, the... well, the list is sort of endless.

BTW, my '94 Bozeman Festival F does have the "integrated" fingerboard and most folk are impressed with its sound.

... Maybe someday I'll be able to afford one of those newfangled designs. The MAS is willing ...

Oh yeah! I'm still lusting after a used Altman, for $8K or so, that I tried out several years ago.

[DataNick]

The elevated fingerboard was Gibson feature #4 in the F5 Master Mandolin brochure from 1922? It is listed as a key acoustical feature of the F5 called "The Strad of Mandolins". Makes you wonder why Gibson didn't uniformly adopt this feauture and why other companies persisted in the integrated design. Cost-cutting really results in volume/tone cutting imho...Of course you see this in the lower end models of a company's particular line (km 150, etc.). All of that to say that anecdotally, the Bozeman Flats that had the integrated fingerboard that I've played, were on the quiet side...nice tone, but quiet.

[johnhgayjr]

Just a few questions: Did Flatiron even make the Festival model while in Bozeman?

Thanks...Willie

I guess this has been answered but... I had a 1995 Flatiron Festival model. I bought it new in 1996. Supposed to be the last year they made 'em in Bozeman. Good mandolin. I played it in band and jam situations for almost 10 years before I got my current mandolin. Sold the flatiron here in the classified ads. It was a pretty good mandolin but I didn't play it after I got a Daley.

I agree with the previous post - the Flatiron had decent tone and volume but the Daley was better on both counts.

[pickinNgrinnin]

Thanks to pickinngrinnin and Nick for answers.

One question are Nashville Flatirons considered superior to Bozeman or visa versa?

Great question but I don't think there is a clear cut answer. When you compare the Bozeman made Flatirons to the Nashville Flatirons, you are not making an apples to apples comparison. There are very significant design/construction differences between the two. Personally, I love the history of the Montana Flatirons but I prefer the design of the Nashville Flatirons. Give the Nashville made Flatirons another 20 years and they might be off the scale great. The Bozeman made Flatirons have time on their side. The Nashville made Flatirons are graduated to Loar specifications so as time marches forward, they will have the tone many search for. Charlie Derrington was a stickler for this particular detail.

[Ivan Kelsall]

From pickin'.. - "....and to sell one for significantly less money.".Or,conversely,sell one for significantly more money !.
If they were so similar in build, & Gibson could afford to make & sell the Flatirons for the price they did,then was the price hike of the Gibsons simply for the name ?. It would seem so. I wonder just how many folks at the time bought a Gibson thinking that it would be significantly 'better' than a Flatiron - more than a few i think,
Ivan

[Mandoplumb]

From pickin'.. - "....and to sell one for significantly less money.".Or,conversely,sell one for significantly more money !.
If they were so similar in build, & Gibson could afford to make & sell the Flatirons for the price they did,then was the price hike of the Gibsons simply for the name ?. It would seem so. I wonder just how many folks at the time bought a Gibson thinking that it would be significantly 'better' than a Flatiron - more than a few i think,
Ivan

Sure the higher price was for the name, happens all the time the name and reputation have a lot of value to some people. If that is worth the price is something everyone must decide for himself.

[Willie Poole]

This coming weekend I am taking my 2001 Nashville made Flatiron Festival and comparing it to a F5-G that a friend owns and let some others decide if they can hear any different in sound, I don`t believe there is any difference but that may be just because it is my mandolin, I`ll post what others say in case some of you are interested in the sound test...I know set up means a lot but both were set up by some good mandolin luthiers...

Willie

[pickinNgrinnin]

A fair comparison would involve new/same strings on both and the same pick. Have fun!

[Willie Poole]

Both mandolins will have new strings of the same brand and the same pick will be used, someone else will play them both one after the other...I just talked to the fellow on the phone and he is suffering with the flu so he may not make it but said his wife just might bring the F=5G and show up, just have to wait and see...I told him about a good cure named "Jim Beam. 86 proof" so here`s hoping...

Willie

[pickinNgrinnin]

A blind test will really make this interesting

[Willie Poole]

Some of you wanted me to post how that sound test between the F-5G and my Flatiron Festival, five people listened and three said the Flatiron was just a tad better to their ears, two others said they could not tell any difference, I did find that the F-5G was a 2006 and mine was a 2000 Festival, made at two different times but still almost identical. I don`t think any difference would be noticed if I had not asked them to listen to them...Now the kicker, just for kicks I asked them what they thought about the Kentucky KM-900 and all five said it put the other two mandolins to shame, just goes to show you that price don`t mean squat when buying a mandolin....Just a note the "judges" had their backs turned and could not see which mandolin was which, they were all played by the same player with the same pick....BTW...I sold the KM-900 on the spot after the testing was over and I played it during one set of our show...Any one want a Festival? My next test will be the Flatiron compared to my Ratliff R-5, a great sounding mandolin in my opinion but I`ll see what those same five "judges" think, all five are bluegrass lovers from way back so they should know a good sounding mandolin when they hear one...

Hope this post didn`t bore any of you....

Willie...

[pickinNgrinnin]

Thanks for the update. Sounds like a fun session. Nothing like a good Mando tasting. My wife thinks all Mandolins sound the same

[Jeff Mando]

The elevated fingerboard was Gibson feature #4 in the F5 Master Mandolin brochure from 1922? It is listed as a key acoustical feature of the F5 called "The Strad of Mandolins". Makes you wonder why Gibson didn't uniformly adopt this feauture and why other companies persisted in the integrated design. Cost-cutting really results in volume/tone cutting imho...

A friend of mine makes a similar argument concerning Fender's "improvements" made to the Telecaster over the years. (originally Fender Broadcaster) He likes to say they "hit a homerun" right out of the chute......resulting in a great, classic guitar. All other design changes and so-called advancements over the years were really just cost-cutting measures that resulted in a "less good" guitar, although marketed to be better. I think most people would rather have a '52 over an '82 Tele.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Jeff -That might very well be the reason why i sold my Fender Tele.& bought the Tokai equivalent,their 'Breezysound'' Tele-alike. Back to back,the Tokai was much 'better' (more pleasingly different) to my ears & just over half the cost,
Ivan

[Trip]

to me, the Nashville F5G and the Nashville Flat Festy feel/sound identical from almost any year.....but does seem like the Gibson did have a generally nicer wood grain and more flame on the backs of most and maybe even some additional binding on the headstock/ fret board on a couple that I have seen?.... but mostly the flowerpot and the Gibson logo were the price difference.....
I've only handled one Montana Flatiron and it was very nice.....

Financially, it made no sense to make both models, and Im guessing some accountant told them so......