When he showed it to me I did suggest he post some pictures on this forum, and then listen for the sound of mandolin geeks (excuse me, mando-archeologists) collectively befouling their knickers.
"It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
--M. Stillion
"Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
--J. Garber
Larry Hunsberger
2013 J Bovier A5 Special w/ToneGard
D'Addario FW-74 flatwound strings
1909 Weymann&Sons bowlback
1919 Weymann&Sons mandolute
Ibanez PF5
1993 Oriente HO-20 hybrid double bass
3/4 guitar converted to octave mandolin
Of course, I typed the above comment and THEN realized that this thread was already 4 pages long and my contribution had already been covered. Perhaps I should read ahead next time.
Larry Hunsberger
2013 J Bovier A5 Special w/ToneGard
D'Addario FW-74 flatwound strings
1909 Weymann&Sons bowlback
1919 Weymann&Sons mandolute
Ibanez PF5
1993 Oriente HO-20 hybrid double bass
3/4 guitar converted to octave mandolin
'Spent a couple of hours with this instrument this afternoon....very, very, very cool.
A couple of years ago I was up doing some research at the Metropolitain Museum of Art, both amazed at the scope of humanity represented and amused at the generally accepted fact that likely 30% or more of the what is on display at the great worlds museums are generally credited as forgeries. Over the years, I have seen many great instruments that the finest "exeperts" in the country assured me were original that later turned out to be forgeries and I have know of several instruments that every person in the country told me in no way possibly existed because they were " the dude" and had never seen one, while I patiently tried to explain over the phone that, no, I have one right here in my hands, while they called me a fool and talked of $20 garage sale Stradivarius labeled cheap violin copies....
Without question, there will be skeptics, there will be claims made, there will be people calling me a fool again and saying that I am no vintage Gibson mandola expert (who really is??? Better yet, who really wants that title???), and my favorite, " That's a whole lotta nuthin' ..." (...from some punk who paints mandolinz green...). In the end, does any of it really matter? What really matters is if it is a great instrument. Does it captivate you, does it move and inspire your music, does it make your heart weap and excite you and stay up late at night lusting after expressions of sound that once only existed in your mind and now you can somehow express that to others????? Is life better with this instrument in your hands?
I'm having some issues posting tonight, so I'll do this in several postings rather than one long one....
j.
www.condino.com
Last edited by j. condino; Nov-02-2015 at 2:28am.
Well..... this is one damned fine mandola; if Gibson made them all like this, they would have sold 1000s of them and I would own one....and play it every day.
I did not check it with a black light, and I did not xray or catscan it; there seemed to be no reason or doubt necessitating that. I ran all of the numbers, made a pretty complete blueprint of it, I checked every mm inside and outside, 'hacked'it, tapped, prodded, and played the full range, and went over it all with a magnifying glass. I have handled a couple of dozen Loar signed instruments, including my favorite - the Griffith A5, for extended periods as a musician, a luthier, and a geeked out engineer with all of the nerdy measuring tools at hand. I can find no reason too doubt the authenticity of this one.
Everything about the neck seems correct and well executed, the setup is fantastic and it plays with ease with nothing but a fresh set of strings, the back and sides are very consistent with several other Gibson mandolas of this period that I have measured- almost down to 1/10 mm. The top shows eveidence that this had special attention and was about 20% thinner than the recorded blueprints that I brought with me (like a lot of snakehead A mandolins vs earlier paddleheads) and the recurve is a bit tighter, not like the typical lazy curves- like you would expect if someone gave it some hand attention. The voice is beautiful, the neck and body area are very consistent with the color balance and patina, and there are the usual Gibson production quirks- the slight anomalies right at the joint around the binding that always show, suggesting the same production technique. The single transverse brace under the bridge is intact and shows no signs of prior repairs. The entire headstock shows no signs of modification or manipulation and from looking at it very closely, I think today may have been the first time the truss rod cover has ever been removed. The caramel buttoned Waverly machines work great and show no signs of altering or monkeybusiness.
The serial number- 75109 is clearly visible form the label, but I looked everywhere inside for about 15 minutes and found no sign of a Factory Order Number, suggesting the possibility that this was a spec or prototype instrument. Does anyone know what the 3 digit number on the outside edge of the tailpiece is?
Given his fondness for snakehead A mandolins, the production if the Griffith Loar, and the fact that his personal giging instrument was often a mandola and NOT a precious F5, it seems reasonable to think that LL had a hand with this one. Could this possibly be one of the mandolas in the white sitting on Loar's workbench in the well known photo of him in a lab coat holding up his ten string while lookng down at the workbench full of chaos?
Regardless of the history or backstory, this is a great mandola...like I said, if it were mine, I would play it every single day! Plenty more to tell, stop by the shop for a visit and you can see the real details and a bit of laughter...
Did I mention the exceptionally clean shaped 1920s Geib hardshell case????
j.
www.condino.com
Last edited by j. condino; Nov-02-2015 at 3:40am.
Very frustrating night; it took me about 70 minutes to upload the last two postings (should have taken 10) and I am unable to load the images I'd like to share. Scott, I sent you an email with about 20 new photos attached so you as an MC jedi can upload them. thx.
Last edited by j. condino; Nov-02-2015 at 1:46am.
George Gruhn, that's who.
Disagree a bit here: it does matter if one is interested in Gibson history, in whether they made this possible "one-of" mandola, or whether it was re-engineered from a more conventional instrument. Whether it's a "great, captivating instrument" or not, its provenance and history do matter; they put it in context, suggest a hitherto unmentioned production decision, during Gibson's "golden age" of mandolin production.In the end, does any of it really matter? NO what really matters is if it is a great instrument. Does it captivate you, does it move and inspire your music, does it make your hea[r]t we[e]p and excite you and stay up late at night lusting after expressions of sound that once only existed in your mind and now you can somehow express that to others????? Is life better with this instrument in your hands?...
The history of a particular instrument can bring insight into the whole history of music -- the changing types and styles of instrumental music, and of the instruments that were created to play it. Not to make too much of this "discovery," if in fact it is one, but I for one look forward with interest, to what your examination might disclose.
"Expressions of sound that...only [exist] in your mind and now you can somehow express...to others" can be realized on a $8 million Stradivarius, or on a 99¢ kazoo. This mandola may elicit such expressions, or it may not. That question aside, I'd like to know [a] if it's a gen-you-wine 1920's snakehead, to the extent we can tell, and [b] what its path to Lee's "institution" was, to the extent that can be determined.
Allen Hopkins
Gibsn: '54 F5 3pt F2 A-N Custm K1 m'cello
Natl Triolian Dobro mando
Victoria b-back Merrill alumnm b-back
H-O mandolinetto
Stradolin Vega banjolin
Sobell'dola Washburn b-back'dola
Eastmn: 615'dola 805 m'cello
Flatiron 3K OM
Everyone that has seen it and played it agrees that it is genuine; the only people suggesting it is not have had no contact with it....
Last edited by j. condino; Nov-02-2015 at 2:21am.
The one in the archive looks like an oddity. 3pc neck, truss cut in, paddle, '22 style tuners..
The path to the institution was that it was donated with a number of other instruments to the institution. I'm going to guess that the family that donated it (the name is in the video posted) must have had the means to secure an instrument of this quality if they actually had a number of instruments to donate to the institution. I own a whole lot of musical instruments, some old some new and I'm pretty sure that my "collection" probably wouldn't be welcomed with open arms by most institutions. They wouldn't know what to with them. We have people on the Cafe that do know and have seen the pictures and a well respected luthier that dismisses himself as a Gibson expert but has enough experience to be able to tell you that it doesn't look like it was modified and that he believes it is real vouching for the authenticity. Having one more expert that by the way, makes a mistake on occasion, certify that he thinks it's real does nothing for me. I for one am going to accept that what you have here is a snakehead H2 mandola previously unknown to the mandolin community.
"It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
--M. Stillion
"Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
--J. Garber
Thanks James for providing so much real hands on information! This is one more reason I spend as much time here as I do! It's always so cool to have the "oyster provide the pearl" from time to time!
Timothy F. Lewis
"If brains was lard, that boy couldn't grease a very big skillet" J.D. Clampett
Using the words Mandola and Snakehead together would previously have only showed one's ignorance on the matter at hand...
but that was then
But Amsterdam was always good for grieving
And London never fails to leave me blue
And Paris never was my kinda town
So I walked around with the Ft. Worth Blues
/
I think it is an exciting and cool discovery! And, I'm sure, there is equal excitement on the "Antique Butter Churn" forum when a new discovery is made there, as well.....if there is such a forum!
And, we're talking about an instrument less than 100 years old, probably owned by the same family all these years, maybe kept in the same house/closet/attic. Not so hard to imagine, really. We're not talking King Tut's tomb or anything, but still great and educational!
When, I moved to the South years ago, I had the chance to meet a lot of old musicians that I admired. I always asked them what happened to their old guitars that were pictured on their albums......you know, 50's Stratocasters, National resonators, Martins, etc......in every case, the instruments got sold off or ended up in the pawn shop to pay a bill over the "lean" years. I think Mike makes a good point that the family probably had the means to hang onto their collection over the years and later donate it to the institution.
Last edited by Jeff Mando; Nov-02-2015 at 11:33am.
Now, apart from joyfully and gratefully playing (and listening to this instrument being played) in our Mandolin Orchestra, I am going to direct my energies towards finding out more about the history of the instrument by speaking with the donor's family. I'll likely have more questions for the group as I delve.
Looking forward to hearing about this instruments history!
Timothy F. Lewis
"If brains was lard, that boy couldn't grease a very big skillet" J.D. Clampett
Wow what a great story unfolding. Thank you for sharing it with this community and the video was outstanding. I'm curious if the sound differences between snake head and paddle head mandos was translated to this mandola? Looking forward to more photos and the history of the family that donated the instruments to a worthy institution.
Tim
Thanks Scott! It's so interesting to see these historical instruments getting kind treatment!
Timothy F. Lewis
"If brains was lard, that boy couldn't grease a very big skillet" J.D. Clampett
Great pics, Scott & James! Thanks!
It's been a while since I was in an "institution", but did the USA switch to using Millimeters recently?
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