Best years for a luthier?

[scottcw]

I have come across more than one mandolin luthier where the consensus is that there are some years that are better/more desirable than others. For example, the later year Givens mandolins are considered excellent, but his earlier years are hit or miss.

What other mandolin makers have years that are considered "better"? A list of names and years might be helpful for a buyer.

Thanks in advance.

[Bill Snyder]

I bet you don't get your list to include those currently building except to say their current builds are among their best.

[FLATROCK HILL]

I personally would not feel comfortable contributing to a list of comparisons ie good, better or best. Too subjective. not really fair to the builder, nor fair to the current owners who may adore their instruments.

Most of the prominent builders and their mandolins have been discussed on this forum. I've had fun researching what's been said; lots of interesting opinions.
A recent thread mentioned changes in W.Kimble's offerings. Is one era better than another? Probably not to everyone...but different none the less.
Gilchrist, Duff, Daley, they've all changed somewhat over the years according to some, I don's see much point though in saying which are better.

JMO and not meant to be argumentative.

Now the big companies...that's another story.
You could probably put (most)mid-seventies Gibsons on the 'Not so Good' side of the chart.

[Jim Garber]

I think the only rule is you don't want any instrument worked on after lunch on a Friday.

[mrmando]

Best year for a luthier? There's always next year.

[Timbofood]

Is it a little like the best days in a boat owners life, the day he buys it and the day he sells it?

[Gary Leonard]

Let's see..

When they are old enough to have learned from their past experiences, and young enough that their eyesight is still good, and back is still straight. So about a year or two around age 45 or so.

Heck, that can describe the best years for any profession, as a web application developer, I can relate!

[JeffD]

The best of vintage years is likely to be obscured in the particular instance by how the mandolin has been kept in the interim. Try before you buy.

The best years of living luthiers are right now, or in the near future.

[scottcw]

Let's see..

When they are old enough to have learned from their past experiences, and young enough that their eyesight is still good, and back is still straight. So about a year or two around age 45 or so.

That works, now I just need to research the age of each luthier.

[Gary Leonard]

That works, now I just need to research the age of each luthier.

They will probably lie about their age.

But in all seriousness, your exact question is why I discounted Gibson when purchasing my mandolins. It seemed hit or miss. I narrowed it down to two companies that I read consistent praise about, then went out and looked for their instruments. For me, it was sound, quality and if they are readily available for me to pick up (I am into instant gratification!)

I would imagine all shops would go through similar periods of up and down, that is why I think it is important to play them. If the instrument speaks to you, it is in your price range, and you like the look, then pull the trigger and get it!

[Jeff Mando]

I would say, just trust your own eyes and ears.

[T.D.Nydn]

I would say all of Loyd Loars years are considered good years....

[Charles E.]

um, that's Lloyd Loar, he was there two years.

[Petrus]

I read something on a thread here recently (can't seem to find it at the moment) remarking on the difference between pre-2008 and later Webers. Apparently there was a change in the carving or graduation of the wood. I think this is a topic where you can either pinpoint a specific change made by a luthier at a given point in time, as in this case, or are left with only subjective criteria (opinion and anecdote.) I would also look for statements directly from a luthier along the lines of "yes, these were definitely my best years" or "there was a major change in (factor x) after this year."

[Bill Snyder]

I would say all of Loyd Loars years are considered good years....

Check out Vivitone and then come back to this statement.

[mrmando]

Ha! Lloyd wasn't a luthier, he was an "acoustic engineer."

[allenhopkins]

This approach seems sorta a wild goose chase. We can make defensible generalizations about a company like Gibson, with its longer history, and its evident changing designs and manufacturing methods: "everyone knows" that Gibson's 1920's instruments were a "golden age," that quality went down in the '60's and '70's -- until introduction of the F-5L -- and that recent mandolins are very well-made. Given that, one can find disappointing '20's instruments, and there are allegedly good '60's instruments.

With individual luthiers, looking for a "golden age" seems questionable. Luthiers may change designs; they definitely can refine their techniques and perfect their craft with experience, but once they pass the learning stage, variations in their products probably reflect more closely the fluctuations of their market, and the requests of individual purchasers. The number of "data points" is small, compared to a larger commercial producer like Gibson, and design variation of individual instruments thus has a disproportionate impact.

There are such pronounced differences among individual instruments, that generalizing that So-and-so's "later period" is consistently and predictably superior or inferior to the "early days," seems like a hard-to-define-and-defend effort. Individual luthiers' and small-shop builders' instruments may vary more from day to day, than from decade to decade.

If you are investigating a particular builder, considering a purchase, it's unlikely that you can compare a half-dozen mandolins from each phase of his/her career -- which would be possible with, say, Gibson. You may just have to see if you can find two or three, from whenever, and compare them, knowing that Mandolin #15 may be significantly different -- for a variety of reasons -- from Mandolin #16 or #20.

"Play as many as you can," is the truism. Predicting quality by a builder's "vintage" may be a shot in the dark.

[scottcw]

I started this thread because I spoke to one highly regarded luthier who told me that a mandolin from his earlier years was significantly different from later as he perfected his craft. He seemed to infer that the earlier mandolin would not be as good as one he made 10 years later.

I also was forwarded an email from another reputable luthier who stated that one of his mandolins that was for sale was made while he was still learning.

If luthiers themselves acknowledge that their work improves as they learn their craft, why are we so hesitant to do so?

[mrmando]

Well, if the luthiers themselves weigh in on the question, it's OK to follow their lead, I should think. But it's a little arrogant to presume I know more about a luthier's work than he or she does.

That being said, I once had an early, EARLY Brian Dean mandolin that was nothing like the incredible works of art he is building now: http://s568.photobucket.com/user/ema...?sort=3&page=1

[T.D.Nydn]

Alright ,I misspelled his name,,since everyone is correcting everyone,,,ha!,,,Loar was engineer and a Master Luthier..he was also there from 1919 to 1924 is 5 years he was there.....

[Timbofood]

Is that my tail?!
Maybe I'll catch it next time I go around!

[AlanN]

It's a fair stretch to think Builder Joe's 500th mandolin would be better than Builder Joe's first mandolin. I know first hand that an early, well-known, builder's output pales in comparison to the same builder's later work.

I always liked this:

Question to Steve Gilchrist: "Steve, what is the best mandolin you ever built?"
Steve Gilchrist: "The next one."

[Bill Snyder]

Loar may have been a master luthier but I don't know of any evidence that he lifted a gouge or a glue brush while at Gibson. His Vivtone instruments were not exactly well received.

[Drew Egerton]

Maybe instead of 'better', a list could just be compiled of those that have made more significant changes to their designs. Gilchrist or Kimble for example as mentioned previously. It could be helpful if I was say looking for as close as possible tone to Ronnie McCoury's Gilchrist, maybe I should be looking for an older used model than buying new. Having a general knowledge of those design change ranges could help narrow down the options for some folks, but of course playing the specific instrument is always the best.

[Josh Levine]

So what you are saying here is you would like us to scan the forum over the past many years as well as our own respective memories/experiences so that we might compile a list of changes that luthiers have made to mandolins so that people that are looking for this particular information may or may not find a mandolin that sounds may or may not sound similar to another mandolin?

Personally, I have just used the search function and done research on particular brands of mandolin that interest me or that I have heard about.