Tone Rite

[slk]

Has anyone here ever heard of or used this system ToneRite. I wonder if it really works??



https://www.tonerite.com/

Steve

[DataNick]

Has anyone here ever heard of or used this system ToneRite. I wonder if it really works??



https://www.tonerite.com/

Steve

Steve,

You need to read at least some of the interminable threads about this
before starting a new one: Tone Rite Mandolin Cafe Try utilizing the search function next time.

Have fun reading...some believe, others don't...

[slk]

You are right....I was just being lazy. I will check those out.

Steve

[MikeEdgerton]

Yeah, they've been discussed

[Scott Tichenor]

Still, no reason to admonish someone in public. We can do better. This is a forum for discussion. Best to treat people with respect. I see no reason to indicate any trouble is being stirred other than responses to the question. Providing a link is fine. Telling people they shouldn't post without doing searches first isn't happening on this or any other forum.

[DataNick]

No admonishment meant...words in print sometimes don't convey the spirit or intent...my bad on that and Steve, my apologies Brotha!...btw Steve and I have talked via PM before so he knows that I wasn't chastising him...

[Scott Tichenor]

Point is, much of what is on all forums has been discussed, and will continue to be.

A brief test. The subjects being discussed in this week in history are as follows. What year was this? 2015 and 2014 would be great guesses. Hot Rize is on their reunion tour and CMSA has just passed. Looks current to me. A few topics discussed this week:

Hot Rize Reunion
A vs. F
CMSA
Latest Chris Thile CD
F5 copy at auction
NAMM Show
Newbie questions
Nugget mandolins
Staying in tune
Tips for a beginner?
DeArmond Mandolin Pickup
banjo jokes
Capos, the ultimate answer

The last topic for discussion is the best, of course. I mean, who knew the ultimate answer even existed? I didn't. The year?

The answer, hot topics for discussion January 1998, courtesy CoMando.

[slk]

Very true Nick. Your post and replies have been very helpful to me, as many others here as well. The community here is wonderful and is always ready to help. Being a newbie to mandolin is exciting to me. I will surprise you Wednesday with a post. Something will be arriving at my door step.

Thanks Much
Steve

[Bertram Henze]

The tragic thing about this topic is my lack of taste for popcorn.

Devices that vibrate your instrument are supposed to do what extensive playing would do. Why would anybody pay loads of money for the instrument and then not play it, but pay more money for a machine that plays it instead?

Those people are not musicians. They're treasure hunters for nature's last conspiracy.

[Tobin]

Devices that vibrate your instrument are supposed to do what extensive playing would do. Why would anybody pay loads of money for the instrument and then not play it, but pay more money for a machine that plays it instead?

Those people are not musicians.

I think you have missed the point. Nobody buys one of these things as a substitute for playing the instrument, as if they only used this device and never played. The point is to introduce constant vibration over a period of time to "settle" the components and simulate years of playing (whether it works as advertised is another matter entirely). It is done as a break-in phase, or peridically as needed - in between normal playing. I have one and I use it sometimes while I'm not playing - like overnight while I'm sleeping. It doesn't make me a non-musician, thank you very much.

I believe Chris Thile has been known to use one as well. Not a musician?

Geez, it's no wonder these threads always go off the rails when hyperbole like that is introduced. Or maybe you were baiting? If so, congrats, it worked!

[Bertram Henze]

The point is to introduce constant vibration over a period of time to "settle" the components and simulate years of playing

One of the components taking part in the "settling" is the musician, his skills and his relationship with the instrument. Supposing that settling really happens, I would not want to miss a single moment of it, or it would be like raising a child and never being home. If it takes years * that's what it takes, those years are not wasted. Those who shortcut this don't know what they are missing out on.

(*) Another thing: I play my own instrument for over ten years now and my recordings from the beginning show no difference with present ones. That's how I like my instrument: ready to go from the start - it can be done. The settling I know and have to contend with happens every time I put on new strings, and that takes only hours. Luthiers whose instruments take years to come to better have a very good reason for that.

There are musicians who are interested in the process, like most humans are interested in several things, but it is not that interest that makes them musicians - their playing is. The musician is not the whole person, it is one role. I wouldn't call it hyperbole, just distinction.

[WW52]

I think you have missed the point. Nobody buys one of these things as a substitute for playing the instrument, as if they only used this device and never played. The point is to introduce constant vibration over a period of time to "settle" the components and simulate years of playing (whether it works as advertised is another matter entirely). It is done as a break-in phase, or peridically as needed - in between normal playing. I have one and I use it sometimes while I'm not playing - like overnight while I'm sleeping. It doesn't make me a non-musician, thank you very much.

I get what you're saying, I think, maybe. It's sort of like back forty years ago when people were doing things to vibrate their guitars to help them to "open up." I remember doing it, putting my guitar in front of a stereo speaker and cranking the volume way up and leaving it for hours. I don't remember if it worked, though. I've never really investigated Tone Rite, but that's sorta what it makes me think of.

[catmandu2]

... like raising a child and never being home.

Baby boot camp (daycare) does have some efficacy. Surrogates can have great utility here...

[sblock]

One should add that the ToneRite is only the latest in a long line of commercial attempts to "open up" instruments mechanically or sonically, but without the bother of playing them for years. Luthiers have placed violins inside closed speaker enclosures, for example, and blasted them with all sorts of loud noises. Roger Siminoff offers a "de-damping" service, for a fee, that subjects the mandolin to a whole regimen of mechanical vibrations. There are some musicians who swear these treatments improved the sound. (And some others who will swear the opposite!) But because all these judgments are purely subjective, not properly controlled, and subject to the musical equivalent of the placebo effect (you very much WANT the treatment to succeed, so, lo and behold, it succeeds!), these claims made about the ToneRite are not trustworthy, from a scientific (and also from a psychological) perspective. But maybe all that matters, in the final analysis, is that you believe your mandolin sounds better? After all, if that gives you greater confidence while playing, and you consequently play better music, or draw better sound from your instrument, isn't it all worth it? And by that measure, didn't it succeed? In a similar way, if you take a placebo and it helps to cure you, isn't that a good thing, regardless of the fact that the placebo had no direct, pharmacological effect?

Anyway, there exists no proper peer-reviewed, scientific evidence published to suggest that instruments improve with the ToneRite. In fact, it's quite the opposite. One carefully controlled scientific study, performed with several high-end acoustic guitars, concluded -- both on the basis of the sound spectra and on the basis of a subjective evaluation of the instruments by a group of accomplished players -- that it does NOT work to improve the sound. You can choose to believe that or not, at your option.



Here's the study, published in a respected journal after peer review -- I think it's an interesting read. Just click on the image below.

[Scott Tichenor]

Strung Like a Horse

Why do they matter? You haven't been paying attention if you have to ask.

The Mandolin Cafe Forum, providing free marketing beyond the wildest dreams of businesses and bands everywhere. Just when they think we've squeezed the last drop, we keep giving the gift that lasts forever.

[Astro]

Did you hear about the new Tone Right ap for your lap top?

It might be a brand new post...but it sure sounds old.

[slk]

My purpose in asking the question was that someone on craigslist had a mandolin for sale, and stated that it had been treated with ToneRite for 3 months. I am thinking what the heck is that. So I looked it up and saw this little device. My question was not targeting why someone would use it in place of playing. It was merely a question if it really worked on not, and had someone tried it. Honestly it was more of a curious type question. But I do thank you for the replies.

Steve

[Explorer]

...(B)ecause all these judgments are purely subjective, not properly controlled, and subject to the musical equivalent of the placebo effect (you very much WANT the treatment to succeed, so, lo and behold, it succeeds!), these claims made about the ToneRite are not trustworthy, from a scientific (and also from a psychological) perspective.

...Anyway, there exists no proper peer-reviewed, scientific evidence published to suggest that instruments improve with the ToneRite. In fact, it's quite the opposite. One carefully controlled scientific study, performed with several high-end acoustic guitars, concluded -- both on the basis of the sound spectra and on the basis of a subjective evaluation of the instruments by a group of accomplished players -- that it does NOT work to improve the sound. You can choose to believe that or not, at your option.

One interesting aspect of this, of course, is that some arguing that other aspects of instrument building are similarly wrong, but they don't instantly leap up to oppose those ideas. Different woods sounding different when used as soundboards seems like a uncontroversial idea, but it also is without a lot of scientific testing and is similarly untrustworthy.

And, of course, another related idea is that the mandolin industry, and instrument industry in general, has been in the wrong on this, and trusting people who don't know what they're talking about. Roger Siminoff was trusted to bring Gibson mandolins back to Loar specs, yet Siminoff's faulty ears make him believe he not only understands how to make instruments sound good, but also have led Siminoff to believe that wood instruments open up over time. As well, certain foolish people believe that Gibson instruments sounded better at certain periods than others, even though there have been no rigorous scientific tests to prove such an idea, and therefore no reason for Gibson to have brought in Siminoff in the first place.

For some reason, those who must post against anything related to instruments opening up must express this logic immediately... but don't do so in any other topic using the same type of assumption. It could give the impression that some only use that reasoning and demonstrate that passion against only one idea, while letting that same line of reasoning pass on everything else.

Again, it's worth noting that Roger Siminoff, Bob Taylor, Will Kimble, Bill Collings, Rick Turner and others have terrible ears, don't understand instrument tone, and therefore can't consistently build excellent instruments due to those factors... because they do make use of the kinds of unproven claims of tonewood tone, instruments opening up, and other such.

Except they do manage to build excellent instruments, leaving some wondering whether those proven results and reputations might carry at least a little weight against those arguments against such builders.

----

Remember, when you see a Virzi topic where people don't start arguing about needing scientific proof regarding an actual difference in tone, there might be an audible difference anyway.

[Explorer]

My purpose in asking the question was that someone on craigslist had a mandolin for sale, and stated that it had been treated with ToneRite for 3 months. I am thinking what the heck is that. So I looked it up and saw this little device. My question was not targeting why someone would use it in place of playing. It was merely a question if it really worked on not, and had someone tried it. Honestly it was more of a curious type question. But I do thank you for the replies.

Steve

In a nutshell: If the ToneRite does work, as some claim, then the instrument has had 2160 simulated playing hours, and will be that much further along. It would be the equivalent of playing that instrument for almost 6 hours a day without fail for a year, or almost 3 hours a day every day for two years, or almost 2 hours a day for three years, or almost a full hour every single day for 6 years.

If the ToneRite has no effect at all, as others claim, no harm done.

My suggestion is to check out the instrument, and see what you think of the tone right now. Regardless of whether the ToneRite changed the tone or not, does it currently sound good?

[D C Blood]

I used one on a couple of different mandolins....I can't say that it helped or not, but just the idea that it might help, helped me..After a couple of years I gave it up. I still liked it, but just got tired of fooling with it....

[jim simpson]

I understand that the purpose of the Tone Rite is to mature the sound of an instrument that hasn't had the benefit of years of being played. That being said, I read the article by Steven Stone in the current Vintage Guitar about 2 prewar Martin guitars that were discovered to be 1 number apart. One had been played a lot and the other very little. They are reported to sound indistinguishable from each other. It seems that they were both great guitars right from the start and didn't change better or worse whether they were played a lot or not. Very interesting.

http://www.acousticfingerstyle.com/stone.htm

[Mandoplumb]

I understand that the purpose of the Tone Rite is to mature the sound of an instrument that hasn't had the benefit of years of being played. That being said, I read the article by Steven Stone in the current Vintage Guitar about 2 prewar Martin guitars that were discovered to be 1 number apart. One had been played a lot and the other very little. They are reported to sound indistinguishable from each other. It seems that they were both great guitars right from the start and didn't change better or worse whether they were played a lot or not. Very interesting

Then the next man will swear that he used it for two weeks and the mandolin improved 100%. Some times we have to trust our feeling until we catch up with science. At one point science said the earth was flat, just think how hard it would be to disprove that if you couldn't start at one point and come back to the same point without changing direction. Some day we may be able to prove or disprove all these thoughts about instruments,but till then we'll just talk about them with different opinions.

[Tom Wright]

... At one point science said the earth was flat, just think how hard it would be to disprove that if you couldn't start at one point and come back to the same point without changing direction...

To be accurate, science, in the person of Eratosthenes, measured the circumference of the Earth to a decent approximation in around 200 b.c. It was the wider population that trusted their senses which maintained the incorrect view. Eratosthenes measured observables, shadow lengths at noon, at different latitudes, to show the Earth was round. That is science. Of course, science is always provisional, so his number for the size of the Earth got altered as measurement improved. And Queen Isabella's advisors agreed the Earth was round, they disagreed with wacko Columbus that the circumference was only about 8,000 miles. They funded the trip because they figured he would find something interesting.

Dang, I really wanted to stay away from this, but I had to speak up for science.

[foldedpath]

Then the next man will swear that he used it for two weeks and the mandolin improved 100%. Some times we have to trust our feeling until we catch up with science.

Well, here's what a guy who was pretty good at science said about that:

The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool.
-- Richard Feynman

[Mark Gunter]

I had to wake up a guitar tonight. They all went to sleep after I fell in love with the mandolin.