Love for Guitars/Guitarists

[CelticDude]

I was checking some other fora for Irish accompaniment instruments, and came a across a few threads that were amazingly vitriolic against guitars at sessions. Is this a common attitude? Why? There were a few reasons mentioned, but really, they fell into the "we hate bad players at our session" sort of complaint. Okay, but that would apply to fiddle, flute or whistle, or anything (I was scared to search for bodhran.)

[jwynia]

There are a few reasons that contribute to the attitude you're noting.

First is that, while bad players of all sorts bug people, it's really rare for someone with only 3 months of playing experience on the fiddle, whistle, flute, etc. to attempt to jump in and play loudly. But, it happens with guitarists who have half a dozen chords who figure that, since most of the tunes use the Western D/G keys and they know those chords, they can jump in and back tunes.

Combine that with the popularity of guitars in general (when compared with fiddles, whistles and wooden flutes or even mandolins), and the sheer number of guitars that often show up at a session is high, with a larger portion of those people being less experienced than the fiddle section, etc.

Then, consider that, unlike most rock, folk, blues or other mainstream music, where the guitar takes center stage, it's very much considered a supporting player in Irish music. The melody instruments are center stage in Irish sessions. That means that the best Irish backers often play with a subtlety that can take quite a bit of work to achieve.

Oh, and that D/G key thing I mentioned? Since lots of tunes are actually in different modes that happen to use the notes from those Western keys, but in different ways means that the chords that sound best backing tunes aren't just banging out a 1st position G, A, D chords. The best backers use inversions of chords and movement up and down the fretboard to follow the movement of the tunes themselves.

I say all of this in part because my journey into Irish music started with a guitar and showing up at the Center for Irish Music. Eventually, more than one of the great instructors there (including people in Altan and Boiled in Lead) gently told me that the best path to learning to back Irish tunes is actually learning to play the tunes themselves.

That led to mandolin and eventually tenor guitar for me and I can say that, now when I back tunes, it's with a much deeper understanding of what's going on in the tunes. And, as a tune player, I find myself cringing when a guitar player, inexperienced with Irish music jumps in.

[foldedpath]

Jwynia covered the main reasons very well above, and I agree with all of that. No prejudice here; I back Irish trad on guitar and also play the melody side on mandolin and flute (not very well on the latter, yet).

There were a few reasons mentioned, but really, they fell into the "we hate bad players at our session" sort of complaint. Okay, but that would apply to fiddle, flute or whistle, or anything (I was scared to search for bodhran.)

Because the heart of the music is a group of people playing melody in unison, it's hard for one bad melody player to wreck it. They just get absorbed and ignored in the unison melody line everyone is playing.

But one guitar player... just one, in a small enough group of say a dozen people or less... can wreck a session by choosing chords that don't fit. Or even if they do fit, they might fit a different interpretation of the major/minor feel of the tune, instead of leaving that up to the melody line as it hints at shifting tonalities within the tune.

That almost never happens in genres like OldTime, Bluegrass, Rock, Blues, and other American formats where you always know if a tune is major or minor, so you know what chords to play. The Americana genres and Pop music in general don't play these coy, mysterious games with the tonal center that Irish trad does (which is one reason I love this music). Sensitivity to this is important for any guitar player backing Irish trad.

And then you have the situation where two or more guitar players show up, and want to play at the same time. Not unusual in a guitar-centric culture like ours. That works in Americana folk genres because the chords are fixed, but it doesn't work in this format where the melody is fixed and accompaniment is improvised. Just two guitar players choosing their own chords and where to change them in an Irish session, is as bad as two mandolin players deciding to take a solo at the same time in a Bluegrass session.

This isn't just generic hate for guitars. There are some melody players who have had so many bad experiences that they'd rather just not see a guitar player walk in the door. And I have to admit, some of the greatest music I've ever heard in a session is at the end, when the backer has gone and it's just pure melody. But generally speaking, good guitar backers who know what they're doing are appreciated. I know maybe three or four guitarists in my area who would always be welcome at local sessions. And thousands of others who wouldn't know what to do with the music. You gotta scope out the good ones, and keep them close.

[Beanzy]

It's too easy for a guitarist to try to tie down the chords to major or minor (also the dreaded resolving every line to the root chord rather than leaving things hanging) which is exactly what you don't want to hear under an Irish traditional tune. If things aren't left ambiguous then they're probably interfering with a melody player line which may be moving between colours. Normally it's best to avoid including thirds in the chords you choose so you leave room for things not to settle. If you tie it down then it's going to reduce things to little more than a stompy ditty, which despite the worst efforts of many knitted ganzi wearers is not what it should be. As the others have said it's not normal tune knocking out that's going on here and it takes time for most people to cotton on to what's actually happening below the obvious superficial stuff.

Then there's rhythm. Probably best to think of rhythm as a series of pulses applied to an accompanying line which complements the melody. So your chords will work best if they're broken up and rolling in under the foam and spray of the tune. Thinking harp rather than guitar can help here. Seeing yourself as putting an ebb and flow or making different scenes for the tunes to play within would be a good mental approach. Strumming can be good for kicking off a tune if you're calling the set, or for pushing the rhythm if you know where that will fit. Strumming just because that's all you know how to do or your default wouldn't earn you any friends. So you need to be pretty judicious in where and how you use strong strumming, a solid arpeggiated chord pulse normally works better.

Ducking out early as you approach changes between tunes in a set is a good idea too. There can be some complex and subtle knitting needed to make for a good transition and unless you're really experienced it's a lot easier to get it wrong than get it right. This also has the advantage of making you look like a thoughtful and knowledgeable player who is making space for the others to do their stuff, that can earn you many brownie points.

So if there's a sense of ill will towards the guitarist who pitches up, it's probably born of weary experience of too many sessions trampled under the mashing plectrums of well intentioned but ignorant have a go heroes.

[Dagger Gordon]

Some of it is simply not understanding the complexities or indeed the form of it.
I should think most guitarists who have a limited number of chords would surely feel out of their depth in a classical or modern jazz ensemble, but if you see a Irish style guitarist playing ordinary D or G chords then you might think that's something you might indeed be able to do. Harder than it looks, though!

[David Lewis]

Brilliant answers. I'd also gently suggest that the guitar is a 'new' instrument and there is a small cohort who reject all non 'traditional' instruments, including the bodhran and the bouzouki.

[CelticDude]

Okay, thanks everyone. You all explained it well, without the vitriol. I ask partly because I'm currently taking Irish guitar lessons at the local Irish Academy of Music. The woman teaching the class, Claudine Langielle, has some really good ideas that are pretty much in line with what's been said here. But don't worry, it'll be a while before I'm brave enough to bring the guitar to a session, if ever.

Re resolving - I've been using The Snowy Path as a "last waltz", and although it's in D, it ends on A7. I like this unresolved ending, but not one guitar player I know can leave it there.

[JeffD]

told me that the best path to learning to back Irish tunes is actually learning to play the tunes themselves.
.

Yesir.

The question sometimes asked: "What should I play when I don't know the tune?" Which drives me nuts. I mean in what other activity could this reasonably be asked?

Driving to work? "Where should I go when I don't know the way?"

How about acting? "What should I say when I haven't learned my lines?"

Shopping? "What should I buy when I don't know what we need?"


There is nothing at all wrong with sitting out a tune.

[JeffD]

There are a few reasons that contribute to the attitude you're noting.

First is that, while bad players of all sorts bug people, it's really rare for someone with only 3 months of playing experience on the fiddle, whistle, flute, etc. to attempt to jump in and play loudly. But, it happens with guitarists who have half a dozen chords who figure that, since most of the tunes use the Western D/G keys and they know those chords, they can jump in and back tunes. .

And taking this a little further, a fiddler, whistler, flooter who is interested in joining a session has often listened to many many hours of Irish music. The same is not always true with the 6 chord guitarist.

[foldedpath]

Re resolving - I've been using The Snowy Path as a "last waltz", and although it's in D, it ends on A7. I like this unresolved ending, but not one guitar player I know can leave it there.

Ugh. Well, one way around that is to end the tune like Altan does on the Harvest Storm album, replacing the turn at the end with a dotted climb up from G to A. It sounds more like an actual ending, and might encourage the guitarists to hang on the A chord. Of course all the melody players have to be on board for that to work.

[Bertram Henze]

what the others have said. It takes time to absorb the music and be an accompanist. The prejudice is pure statistics: who is that? if he is a good ITM accompanist why haven't we heard of him?

[catmandu2]

Then there's rhythm. Probably best to think of rhythm as a series of pulses applied to an accompanying line which complements the melody. So your chords will work best if they're broken up and rolling in under the foam and spray of the tune. .

Excellent.

Folks are so often bound in 'Western' (what we hear on the radio) forms, and the guitar is a de rigueur expression of these forms. Must step back, outside, and get into the music. Accompaniment - especially in forms like ITM - is a fluid, sometimes ambiguous, often suggestive, fugitive, dynamic course - as so aptly described above.

Depending on the type/style guitar one is accustomed to playing - there may be lots of 'unlearning' to do. The guitar IS capable of so much - (and often too much, eh); a light, lilting, nuanced approach may not be so common for many players -

[Mike Anderson]

Ugh. Well, one way around that is to end the tune like Altan does on the Harvest Storm album, replacing the turn at the end with a dotted climb up from G to A. It sounds more like an actual ending, and might encourage the guitarists to hang on the A chord. Of course all the melody players have to be on board for that to work.

Seems sensible, given Altan (guitarist Mark Kelly) wrote it.

[DavidKOS]

There's a similar issues with piano accompaniment in Irish music. It can be well, done, like a good guitarist in Irish music, but it is often NOT well done for all the reasons mentioned by previous posters.

That's one reason the DADGAD tuned guitar is popular in Irish music, it is more easily used for modal harmonies, same for the use of the Irish bouzouki.

The original Irish session music was monophonic, all instruments playing about the same, ornaments based on the pipes and the fiddle, etc. Guitar, particularly played in a pedestrian style common to folk music, just doesn't cut it.

[DavidKOS]

The question sometimes asked: "What should I play when I don't know the tune?"
There is nothing at all wrong with sitting out a tune.

"What should I play when I don't know the tune?"


NOTHING!

Listen and learn the tune.

[catmandu2]

Love everyone's comments. Only thing I would add - agreeing in F-path's observations .. I think much in American OT, blues, etc music is often ambiguous - outside of maj/min simple diatonics, so much of that good old 'weirdness' (for less of a better term) in so much of that good old music. That's some of what I'm so compelled by and seeking in the study/play that I pursue. As a student of (the) old forms, this is something I find alluring. What do you knowledgeable folks call it? - there are words n every language - the temperament, just intonation? There is more than just the scalar/pitch/discrete aspects of it all, no doubt. I guess this occurs in every other form too, come to think.. - rock, jazz, all.. - contemporary forms too..

*Maybe I should just call it nuance and shut up. A play of consonance/dissonances, tensions, pulls, weights, weaves, veins, like strides of sediments in land running with the oil of old blood, or like everything else..

Okay I'll shut up

[jwynia]

But don't worry, it'll be a while before I'm brave enough to bring the guitar to a session, if ever.

I completely understand. I also play wooden spoons and other folk percussion. I'd NEVER bring those to an Irish session, though the Irish band I'm in does utilize my playing of those in a few spots. Those get an even stronger reaction than guitars or bodhrans do at many sessions, despite the fact that, when our band plays, I often get complemented on how well the spoons complement our reels and sound like dancers on wood floors.

Someone else mentioned the question that often gets asked of "what to do if you can't play the tunes". The instruments that provide an opportunity to answer "play it" are the ones that aren't terribly welcome BECAUSE so many people turn to them when they don't know the tunes. As a result, by the time someone who plays the spoons, guitar or bodhran well shows up at a session, there have been dozens who made a mess.

As a result, the reaction is similar to most people's reaction to seeing an infant on a flight. It doesn't matter that THIS baby might fly for 3 hours in complete silence, our experience leads us to anticipate the problems.

[CelticDude]

Ugh. Well, one way around that is to end the tune like Altan does on the Harvest Storm album, replacing the turn at the end with a dotted climb up from G to A. It sounds more like an actual ending, and might encourage the guitarists to hang on the A chord. Of course all the melody players have to be on board for that to work.

I think I do that the last time through, although I didn't write it out, for myself or especially others..

[M.Marmot]

As a result, the reaction is similar to most people's reaction to seeing an infant on a flight. It doesn't matter that THIS baby might fly for 3 hours in complete silence, our experience leads us to anticipate the problems.

This ... this is a brilliant comparison.

[Bertram Henze]

This ... this is a brilliant comparison.

It's not so uncommon...

[M.Marmot]

It's not so uncommon...

Brilliance is not exclusive of precedence ... though, replace those collicky babies with banjo players and you do have a readymade MandoCaf meme.

And, so as not to be derailing the thread .... i thought jwynias' reply pretty much summed up the reasons why certain instruments are dreaded at sessions.

[Bertram Henze]

Brilliance is not exclusive of precedence

I'd even say that brilliance requires precedence in order to be recognized. These mental pictures are striking because we have seen them in our own reality (including banjo players if you like), and they are also comforting because they show that we are not alone.

Other than the guitar player who enters a session without getting what is going on - pity on him, because he is truly lonesome. Most session musicians will not be so impolite as telling him what's wrong, but just ignore him to death. With luck, he might be able to blindly grope his way along chords gleaned from the hand of an experienced guitar player in the same session.

[Dagger Gordon]

As a matter of interest, do you suppose if someone turned up with a bouzouki they would get be treated any differently, or is there an assumption that if you've bothered to get a bouzouki then you probably do know a bit about it?

[Bertram Henze]

I never met a zouk player who didn't know his stuff. That creates a certain confidence.

[DavidKOS]

It's also a bit easier to get into a modal/rhythmic accompaniment on Irish Bouzouki, especially if tuned GDAD, than most non DADGAD guitar players can do.

Guitar was never really a big part of the Irish session group of "traditional" instruments, pipes, fiddle, whistle, flute, concertina, accordion, and the plucked strings were mandolin and banjo; Irish Bouzouki, was sort of developed by respected players in the Irish tradition (think Donal Lunny, etc.) and thus has a more acceptable pedigree for Irish music.