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Thread: "The Bickford Method for Mando-cello"

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    Default "The Bickford Method for Mando-cello"

    I've seen mentioned that this is available as a pdf file. Anyone have a copy they could share?

    Thanks.

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    Default Re: "The Bickford Method for Mando-cello"

    Wow is this book hard to find or what? The Library of Congress has 1 copy..it's checked out but I have my local library looking into it. If anyone sees it please post. Thanks

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    Default Re: "The Bickford Method for Mando-cello"

    Are you aware that this book is in Universal Notation?

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    Registered User harper's Avatar
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    Default Re: "The Bickford Method for Mando-cello"

    Here is Volume 1. Sorry, I don't have the others.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	bickford mandolin method vol 1.pdf 
Views:	478 
Size:	6.60 MB 
ID:	138085
    Harper (My other mandolin is a harp)

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    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: "The Bickford Method for Mando-cello"

    Thanks but that's the mandolin method....wouldn't a mando-cello method be in bass clef for CGDA tuned instruments?

    Is there a specific mando-cello book?

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    mando-evangelist August Watters's Avatar
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    Default Re: "The Bickford Method for Mando-cello"

    Quote Originally Posted by wundo View Post
    Are you aware that this book is in Universal Notation?
    Background: Universal Notation was a transposing system in which the highest string of any mando-instrument was notated as an E, as if it was a mandolin. It was intended as a short cut so that players could try different instruments without learning new clefs. So a mandocello book in UN would be written in treble clef, with a transposition of an octave and a fifth.

    AFAIK, Universal Notation was used mainly just during the Golden Era and in the US. IMHO this is one tradition that's not worth keeping -- In the long run it's easier to just learn to read different clefs.
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    Registered User Martin Jonas's Avatar
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    Default Re: "The Bickford Method for Mando-cello"

    Quote Originally Posted by August Watters View Post
    Background: Universal Notation was a transposing system in which the highest string of any mando-instrument was notated as an E, as if it was a mandolin. It was intended as a short cut so that players could try different instruments without learning new clefs. So a mandocello book in UN would be written in treble clef, with a transposition of an octave and a fifth.
    Thanks, August. I thought univeral notation was written at pitch, but transposed by full octaves (one for mandola, two for mandocello/mandobass). Jim Dalton wrote a two-line review of the Bickford mandocello book here, where he says it "Contains a four-page intro to duo playing on the mandocello written in Universal Notation (treble clef sounding 2 octaves lower than written)."

    Indicentally: duo-style on mandocello sounds rather niche. I can't say I've ever seen or heard that done.

    Martin

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    Default Re: "The Bickford Method for Mando-cello"

    Actually the Bickford Mandolin Method is available online as well. The MandoCello doesn't appear to be.
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    Default Re: "The Bickford Method for Mando-cello"

    "Thanks, August. I thought univeral notation was written at pitch, but transposed by full octaves (one for mandola, two for mandocello/mandobass)."

    Martin is correct. Universal notation is simply octave treble clef, with varying degrees of transposition. For mandocello, the transposition would be "16", meaning two octaves. For mandola it would be "8". Octave treble clef has always been used for octave mandolin and for the guitar. Some modern composers for mandolin ensemble routinely write alto mandola parts in universal notation, a.k.a. 8va treble; an example would be Owen Hartford, because the one person in the Providence Mandolin Orchestra who plays the alto instrument read its (the other members of the mandola section, such as myself, play the octave mandolin, and so also want the music in 8va treble).

    It is easy to confuse "transposed notation" for mandolin family instruments with universal notation. "Transposed" means a change of key (and octave when necessary) so that the notes are played as if the instrument were a mandolin (only bigger). Notation of this sort is used elsewhere with instrument families that differ in size so that fingering patterns can be kept constant across instruments.

    One often sees criticism of universal or transposed notation on mandolin family instruments in favor of allegedly "correct' notation, which supposedly comes from bowed string equivalents. This assumes that mandolin family instruments are plucked versions of bowed instruments, a false equivalency. Notation evolves to suit the normal use of the instrument, which differs with the social and historical context.

    If one is sight-reading the viola part from a Mozart string quartet on the alto mandola it is obviously useful to be able to read alto clef. However, if one is sight-reading a mandola part from an early 20th century American mandolin orchestra piece, one better know how to read universal (or transposed) notation. If one is using the alto mandola to sight read an octave part from a modern German composition, one also has to learn to read 8va treble on the alto instrument. Just as if one is playing John Dowland on a renaissance lute from an original manuscript, one needs to know how to read French tablature.

    "Indicentally: duo-style on mandocello sounds rather niche. I can't say I've ever seen or heard that done."

    Calace wrote 8 preludes (and much other music) for the liuto cantabile, the Italian version of the mandocello; several of these involve extensive use of duo style. There are exercises for learning duo style on the liuto in Calace's method book for the instrument. Incidentally, solo music for the liuto is typically written in a combination of 8va treble and bass clef (usually, but not always, the notes on the C course are written in bass clef).
    Robert A. Margo

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    poor excuse for anything Charlieshafer's Avatar
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    Default Re: "The Bickford Method for Mando-cello"

    If it's not the historical aspect, but really just studies or etudes you need, the easiest way is to grab any one of a number of modern methods for cello. They work very well, they just don't cover the right hand. In the case of the mandocello, that's easy, just hold the pick as you would for a mandolin.

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    Default Re: "The Bickford Method for Mando-cello"

    I posted these attachments showing the different styles of notation several
    years ago, but here they are again.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails How Can I leave thee Bass clefs.pdf   How Can I leave thee orig.pdf   How Can I leave thee trans.pdf  


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    Default Re: "The Bickford Method for Mando-cello"

    Quote Originally Posted by August Watters View Post
    Background: Universal Notation was a transposing system in which the highest string of any mando-instrument was notated as an E, as if it was a mandolin. It was intended as a short cut so that players could try different instruments without learning new clefs. So a mandocello book in UN would be written in treble clef, with a transposition of an octave and a fifth.

    AFAIK, Universal Notation was used mainly just during the Golden Era and in the US. IMHO this is one tradition that's not worth keeping -- In the long run it's easier to just learn to read different clefs.
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    Actually the Bickford Mandolin Method is available online as well. The MandoCello doesn't appear to be.
    Thanks for clearing that up.

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    Default Re: "The Bickford Method for Mando-cello"

    "Thanks for clearing that up."

    Clear what up? August described "transposed" not "universal" notation in his posting. See the comments by Martin and myself.
    Robert A. Margo

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    Default Re: "The Bickford Method for Mando-cello"

    Yeah. I'll stick with not cleared up until there's a consensus. (I was going to ask about Universal Notation myself, but didn't want to drift the thread off topic.)

    Anyway, wanted to point out that two octaves is a 15th, not a 16th, which is why you'll see 15ma (or 15mb or something similar) written. Just mentioning that because I've seen it said before on here once or twice.
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    mando-evangelist August Watters's Avatar
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    Default Re: "The Bickford Method for Mando-cello"

    Quote Originally Posted by margora View Post
    It is easy to confuse "transposed notation" for mandolin family instruments with universal notation. "Transposed" means a change of key (and octave when necessary) so that the notes are played as if the instrument were a mandolin (only bigger). Notation of this sort is used elsewhere with instrument families that differ in size so that fingering patterns can be kept constant across instruments.
    Thanks, Bob -- you're right, I was speaking about transposed notation for mandocello, which is different than the UN version of "How Can I Leave Thee" linked above -- which shows a transposition of two octaves.

    The confusion Bob mentions can be seen in the literature itself: I've been going through an archive I recently inherited of about 3 dozen boxes of (mostly) Golden Era ensemble music, and at one point my eye caught on a handwritten cello part that was labeled as "Universal Notation" -- and transposed to a different key. Maybe this was a mistake by the copyist, or perhaps it was from an earlier period before UN was standardized. I'm speculating here, but wondering if I have some older parts here which used "UN" to mean something other than what it came to mean later. I've noticed other variations in the use of terminology -- "tenor mandola" used to mean CGDA in one place, and GDAE in another.

    Thanks to Bob and Martin for clearing this up.
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    Default Re: "The Bickford Method for Mando-cello"

    Quote Originally Posted by margora View Post
    "Thanks for clearing that up."

    Clear what up? August described "transposed" not "universal" notation in his posting. See the comments by Martin and myself.
    Quote Originally Posted by objectsession View Post
    Yeah. I'll stick with not cleared up until there's a consensus. (I was going to ask about Universal Notation myself, but didn't want to drift the thread off topic.)
    The concept of universal tuning is what was cleared up to me.

    As for the mando-cello version of the book, I'm still waiting to find out.

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    mando-evangelist August Watters's Avatar
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    Default Re: "The Bickford Method for Mando-cello"

    The attachments posted by wundo in post #11 above are very helpful -- the bass clef version shows the actual pitch, and the original page from Bickford shows the same in Universal Notation -- sounding two octaves higher in treble clef. The "transposed" version actually changes the key signature, so the cello can be envisioned in mandolin tuning.
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    Default Re: "The Bickford Method for Mando-cello"

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	MC Positions in Bass Clef p 1.pdf 
Views:	155 
Size:	63.4 KB 
ID:	138160Click image for larger version. 

Name:	MC Positions in Bass Clef p2 and 3.pdf 
Views:	139 
Size:	128.6 KB 
ID:	138161I transposed these a few years ago.

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    Default Re: "The Bickford Method for Mando-cello"

    "Maybe this was a mistake by the copyist, or perhaps it was from an earlier period before UN was standardized. I'm speculating here, but wondering if I have some older parts here which used "UN" to mean something other than what it came to mean later. I've noticed other variations in the use of terminology -- "tenor mandola" used to mean CGDA in one place, and GDAE in another."

    In 1907 the American Guild (of Banjoists and Mandolinists) "officially" declared the CGDA mandola (as opposed to the GDAE) mandola and the CGDA mandocello (as opposed to the liuto) to the the "correct" instruments for the American mandolin orchestra. In 1913 the Guild went further and pushed the general adoption of UN. Prior to this, the parts were transposed (I know of no evidence and, having discussed it with him, neither does Paul Sparks of any parts for CGDA mandola in alto clef in the early 20th century. Doesn't mean they didn't exist, just haven't seen any). After 1913 published parts were supposed to be in UN but it seems very plausible that manuscript parts would still be prepared in transposed notation. It is easy enough to get this wrong in practice, and some experimentation with UN must have proceeded the Guild's declaration, so August's speculation sounds worthwhile to me.

    Also, as correctly pointed out, the two octave transposition is 15, not 16.
    Robert A. Margo

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    Default Re: "The Bickford Method for Mando-cello"

    Hello all !
    Has Somebody found these 3 volumes in *.pdf please ?
    ... because I am seeking deeply for, and another which was written by Raffaele Calace for the Liuto Cantabile
    Thank you very much by advance !

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    Default Re: "The Bickford Method for Mando-cello"

    Quote Originally Posted by harper View Post
    Here is Volume 1. Sorry, I don't have the others.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	bickford mandolin method vol 1.pdf 
Views:	478 
Size:	6.60 MB 
ID:	138085
    Thank you very much Harper
    Did you found the other volumes please ?
    Regards,

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    Default Re: "The Bickford Method for Mando-cello"

    Irenee, email me (home address, not CF Message) and I will get you the modern bass clef Bickford. I would recommend anyone interested also contribute to Ben Ash's Paypal--he did an enormous amount of work on this.
    Jim at:
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    Default Re: "The Bickford Method for Mando-cello"

    Thanks Jim. I’ll be happy to post the file in Bass Clef here later. I have one more Mandocello method book. It’s not nearly as nice as this one, but I’m considering transcribing into Dorico for experience.

    Thanks,
    Benjamin

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    Default Re: "The Bickford Method for Mando-cello"

    "I have one more Mandocello method book. It’s not nearly as nice as this one, but I’m considering transcribing into Dorico for experience.
    Thanks,
    Benjamin"

    Happy to promote your work, Ben.
    What is the original source of this "one more MC method book?" Are you talking Goichberg, or is there something new?

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    Default Re: "The Bickford Method for Mando-cello"

    I have wiedt elementary studies and a bellenghi. Both being in treble clef, figured it would be nice to go to bass clef with them also. I need to check the copyright on the wiedt however.

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