I've seen mentioned that this is available as a pdf file. Anyone have a copy they could share?
Thanks.
I've seen mentioned that this is available as a pdf file. Anyone have a copy they could share?
Thanks.
Wow is this book hard to find or what? The Library of Congress has 1 copy..it's checked out but I have my local library looking into it. If anyone sees it please post. Thanks
Are you aware that this book is in Universal Notation?
Thanks but that's the mandolin method....wouldn't a mando-cello method be in bass clef for CGDA tuned instruments?
Is there a specific mando-cello book?
Background: Universal Notation was a transposing system in which the highest string of any mando-instrument was notated as an E, as if it was a mandolin. It was intended as a short cut so that players could try different instruments without learning new clefs. So a mandocello book in UN would be written in treble clef, with a transposition of an octave and a fifth.
AFAIK, Universal Notation was used mainly just during the Golden Era and in the US. IMHO this is one tradition that's not worth keeping -- In the long run it's easier to just learn to read different clefs.
Exploring Classical Mandolin (Berklee Press, 2015)
Progressive Melodies for Mandocello (KDP, 2019) (2nd ed. 2022)
New Solos for Classical Mandolin (Hal Leonard Press, 2020)
2021 guest artist, mandocello: Classical Mandolin Society of America
Thanks, August. I thought univeral notation was written at pitch, but transposed by full octaves (one for mandola, two for mandocello/mandobass). Jim Dalton wrote a two-line review of the Bickford mandocello book here, where he says it "Contains a four-page intro to duo playing on the mandocello written in Universal Notation (treble clef sounding 2 octaves lower than written)."
Indicentally: duo-style on mandocello sounds rather niche. I can't say I've ever seen or heard that done.
Martin
Actually the Bickford Mandolin Method is available online as well. The MandoCello doesn't appear to be.
"It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
--M. Stillion
"Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
--J. Garber
"Thanks, August. I thought univeral notation was written at pitch, but transposed by full octaves (one for mandola, two for mandocello/mandobass)."
Martin is correct. Universal notation is simply octave treble clef, with varying degrees of transposition. For mandocello, the transposition would be "16", meaning two octaves. For mandola it would be "8". Octave treble clef has always been used for octave mandolin and for the guitar. Some modern composers for mandolin ensemble routinely write alto mandola parts in universal notation, a.k.a. 8va treble; an example would be Owen Hartford, because the one person in the Providence Mandolin Orchestra who plays the alto instrument read its (the other members of the mandola section, such as myself, play the octave mandolin, and so also want the music in 8va treble).
It is easy to confuse "transposed notation" for mandolin family instruments with universal notation. "Transposed" means a change of key (and octave when necessary) so that the notes are played as if the instrument were a mandolin (only bigger). Notation of this sort is used elsewhere with instrument families that differ in size so that fingering patterns can be kept constant across instruments.
One often sees criticism of universal or transposed notation on mandolin family instruments in favor of allegedly "correct' notation, which supposedly comes from bowed string equivalents. This assumes that mandolin family instruments are plucked versions of bowed instruments, a false equivalency. Notation evolves to suit the normal use of the instrument, which differs with the social and historical context.
If one is sight-reading the viola part from a Mozart string quartet on the alto mandola it is obviously useful to be able to read alto clef. However, if one is sight-reading a mandola part from an early 20th century American mandolin orchestra piece, one better know how to read universal (or transposed) notation. If one is using the alto mandola to sight read an octave part from a modern German composition, one also has to learn to read 8va treble on the alto instrument. Just as if one is playing John Dowland on a renaissance lute from an original manuscript, one needs to know how to read French tablature.
"Indicentally: duo-style on mandocello sounds rather niche. I can't say I've ever seen or heard that done."
Calace wrote 8 preludes (and much other music) for the liuto cantabile, the Italian version of the mandocello; several of these involve extensive use of duo style. There are exercises for learning duo style on the liuto in Calace's method book for the instrument. Incidentally, solo music for the liuto is typically written in a combination of 8va treble and bass clef (usually, but not always, the notes on the C course are written in bass clef).
Robert A. Margo
If it's not the historical aspect, but really just studies or etudes you need, the easiest way is to grab any one of a number of modern methods for cello. They work very well, they just don't cover the right hand. In the case of the mandocello, that's easy, just hold the pick as you would for a mandolin.
I posted these attachments showing the different styles of notation several
years ago, but here they are again.
"Thanks for clearing that up."
Clear what up? August described "transposed" not "universal" notation in his posting. See the comments by Martin and myself.
Robert A. Margo
Yeah. I'll stick with not cleared up until there's a consensus. (I was going to ask about Universal Notation myself, but didn't want to drift the thread off topic.)
Anyway, wanted to point out that two octaves is a 15th, not a 16th, which is why you'll see 15ma (or 15mb or something similar) written. Just mentioning that because I've seen it said before on here once or twice.
Thanks, Bob -- you're right, I was speaking about transposed notation for mandocello, which is different than the UN version of "How Can I Leave Thee" linked above -- which shows a transposition of two octaves.
The confusion Bob mentions can be seen in the literature itself: I've been going through an archive I recently inherited of about 3 dozen boxes of (mostly) Golden Era ensemble music, and at one point my eye caught on a handwritten cello part that was labeled as "Universal Notation" -- and transposed to a different key. Maybe this was a mistake by the copyist, or perhaps it was from an earlier period before UN was standardized. I'm speculating here, but wondering if I have some older parts here which used "UN" to mean something other than what it came to mean later. I've noticed other variations in the use of terminology -- "tenor mandola" used to mean CGDA in one place, and GDAE in another.
Thanks to Bob and Martin for clearing this up.
Exploring Classical Mandolin (Berklee Press, 2015)
Progressive Melodies for Mandocello (KDP, 2019) (2nd ed. 2022)
New Solos for Classical Mandolin (Hal Leonard Press, 2020)
2021 guest artist, mandocello: Classical Mandolin Society of America
The attachments posted by wundo in post #11 above are very helpful -- the bass clef version shows the actual pitch, and the original page from Bickford shows the same in Universal Notation -- sounding two octaves higher in treble clef. The "transposed" version actually changes the key signature, so the cello can be envisioned in mandolin tuning.
Exploring Classical Mandolin (Berklee Press, 2015)
Progressive Melodies for Mandocello (KDP, 2019) (2nd ed. 2022)
New Solos for Classical Mandolin (Hal Leonard Press, 2020)
2021 guest artist, mandocello: Classical Mandolin Society of America
"Maybe this was a mistake by the copyist, or perhaps it was from an earlier period before UN was standardized. I'm speculating here, but wondering if I have some older parts here which used "UN" to mean something other than what it came to mean later. I've noticed other variations in the use of terminology -- "tenor mandola" used to mean CGDA in one place, and GDAE in another."
In 1907 the American Guild (of Banjoists and Mandolinists) "officially" declared the CGDA mandola (as opposed to the GDAE) mandola and the CGDA mandocello (as opposed to the liuto) to the the "correct" instruments for the American mandolin orchestra. In 1913 the Guild went further and pushed the general adoption of UN. Prior to this, the parts were transposed (I know of no evidence and, having discussed it with him, neither does Paul Sparks of any parts for CGDA mandola in alto clef in the early 20th century. Doesn't mean they didn't exist, just haven't seen any). After 1913 published parts were supposed to be in UN but it seems very plausible that manuscript parts would still be prepared in transposed notation. It is easy enough to get this wrong in practice, and some experimentation with UN must have proceeded the Guild's declaration, so August's speculation sounds worthwhile to me.
Also, as correctly pointed out, the two octave transposition is 15, not 16.
Robert A. Margo
Hello all !
Has Somebody found these 3 volumes in *.pdf please ?
... because I am seeking deeply for, and another which was written by Raffaele Calace for the Liuto Cantabile
Thank you very much by advance !
Irenee, email me (home address, not CF Message) and I will get you the modern bass clef Bickford. I would recommend anyone interested also contribute to Ben Ash's Paypal--he did an enormous amount of work on this.
Jim at:
jfimhoff@msn.com
Thanks Jim. I’ll be happy to post the file in Bass Clef here later. I have one more Mandocello method book. It’s not nearly as nice as this one, but I’m considering transcribing into Dorico for experience.
Thanks,
Benjamin
"I have one more Mandocello method book. It’s not nearly as nice as this one, but I’m considering transcribing into Dorico for experience.
Thanks,
Benjamin"
Happy to promote your work, Ben.
What is the original source of this "one more MC method book?" Are you talking Goichberg, or is there something new?
I have wiedt elementary studies and a bellenghi. Both being in treble clef, figured it would be nice to go to bass clef with them also. I need to check the copyright on the wiedt however.
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