Please explain 23" scale to me

[Verne Andru]

So I've been mucking with tenor for a few years now and don't understand why people prefer 23" over 21". I find it's a real stretch for scales/arps and many of the chord shapes used on mando are difficult, if not impossible, to finger.

I'm 6' tall with proportionate hands, so it's not like I'm a small person trying to make my hands do something meant for larger people. I play everything from a 34" 5-string bass to a Jeff Loomis 7-string long-scale shredder to guitars of all scales to resonator and regular mandolin.

So what am I missing?

I understand the tenor came from the banjo world, which I know little of, so there may be something there that will make it make sense. As is, I much prefer 21" and even find that a bit too long for some things.

Any help appreciated.

[Charles E.]

Verne, the tenor guitar does come directly from the tenor banjo. From what I understand the tenor guitar came about in the early 1920's as a crossover instrument for banjo players as the archtop guitar was gaining popularity in jazz band settings. Most tenor banjo's at the time had 19 frets to the rim of the banjo head and a 23 inch scale. Most of the playing style was chordal to support the band and cut through the horns, so a longer scale gave a bit more oomph then a 17 fret (short scale) could.

Rather then using 'mandolin' chords use barr chords instead. It makes it much easier to move around the fingerboard. Mel Bay sells a tenor banjo chord book that is very useful, it is ......http://www.melbay.com/Products/93327...yclopedia.aspx

Providing that you are tuning to standard tenor tuning, CGDA

Hope this helps.

[Marty Jacobson]

There are pros and cons to the choice of any scale length/tuning/string gauge combination.
With a 23" scale vs. 21" scale, you get more harmonic content (could be called richness, could be called jangle depending on how you look at it) and you can use lighter strings. For modal tunings where stretch is less of an issue, getting the tone expected for a certain musical idiom and better perceived volume (because of where the harmonics sit in the acoustic mix) from having a longer scale is preferable to the shorter scale. These are all ingredients that can be used to make a gumbo, and everyone swears their grandmother's is the best.

[Seonachan]

Do people really prefer it, or is it just a case of working with what's out there? I find 21" to be my sweet spot in terms of hand and finger reach (I have pretty short fingers), but I'd guess at least 90% of the tenors out there are 23" (and I assume that's more down to tradition than focus grouping scale preferences). I have an old 21" Regal that I love to play but it doesn't hold a candle to my 0-18T. I can capo the 2nd fret on the Martin to get a 21" scale, but there's no equivalent fix to the Regal to make it resonate and sustain like the Martin. Now if there were 21" Martins (that didn't suffer in the tone dept vs 23"), I'd be all over that.

[bruce.b]

My Herb Taylor with a 21.25" scale is easily louder than a Blueridge BR-40, which has a 23" scale and a bigger body. It has a punchy tone with a lot of attack and is easily heard over the 6 string guitars I've played with. It's the best instrument I've yet owned. It's an archtop and sounds nothing like a flattop guitar. #174 on his site. There is a video of it if you want to hear it.

[Marty Jacobson]

Bruce, that's not really a fair comparison. You're comparing an instrument built by a superb modern luthier using the best tonewoods available to a BR-40, which while it may be a decent value, is really a mediocre instrument in lutherie terms. Scale length comparisons really only apply when all else is equal. A better comparison would be to take your Br-40 and change the strings to a heavier gauge and capo up to the 2nd fret or so, same tuning.

[Dolamon]

Verne - once I made the commitment to really learn CGDa tuning (first on a mandola) and started to explore some of the Tenor Banjo literature ... a lot of chords I could play on mandolin just became too difficult and muddy sounding. But applying Tenor chords and concept to all the instruments which were tuned with a low C, I began to hear my playing differently, and expanded my chord repertoire and began to think in Alto or Tenor voicings. As for the various length of scales, well that is personal preference and many short scale instruments sound as good or better than the longer scale.

Personally I feel limited on a mandolin (but that's me) and even had a 17 inch scale, 4 string resonator tenor built which just smokes most of my other tenors. It was suggested to get a good Tenor chord book, great idea ... also it's worth a look at Pete Martin's remarkable collection of digital books (http://www.petimarpress.com/books.html ). A few of his books really kicked me loose from the old way I was struggling with.

[bruce.b]

Agreed Marty. I was saying that build quality is more important than scale length.

The explanation I've read for the primary scale lengths goes back to the tenor banjo. It was first used as a melody instrument, where the shorter scale works best. Later it was used more as a chording instrument, where the longer scale worked better.

I rarely play my tenors with a 23 inch scale because I feel more comfortable and confident on a shorter scale playing what I play, mostly fiddle tunes.

[GKWilson]

The 23" scale is easier to tune GDAE/GDAD which many prefer.

[fox]

I enjoy all my tenors 20" 21" 22.5" 23" & 25.5" I quite often play them back to back in one session.
The six string conversions I own, sound amazing especially for finger picking & strumming, it seems the longer scale sustains for so much longer.
The string tensions are pretty much the same on all the scale lengths but the longer strings feel so much softer & mellow to play.
The little 20" archtop is great for fast melody where sustain is not so important but finger picking the stiff strings, is not so great.
I guess the 23" is middle ground.
As Gary points out tuning plays a part too.

[Verne Andru]

Hmm, I kinda understand the alternate tuning argument, but coming from mandolin don't really understand why people want an octave mandolin tuning on a guitar, but to each their own.

From what I'm gathering here, it's seems 23" is a matter of inertia - that is what the original banjo's were, so that's what they made the original tenors and thing's have pretty much stagnated there. I like versatility in an instrument which means I like to be able to comp and play lead without changing instruments.

My interest is more in electric than acoustic, so the sustain and oomph arguments don't tend to hold up very well. If they did a Fender Stratocaster would have more balls than a Gibson Les Paul, due to the longer scale, but the reality is that just isn't the case.

I suppose manufacturers won't start making 21" until the market asks for it, and the market [as seen here] is happy with the longer 23" scale, so looks like custom is the only way to go at this point.

[fox]

There are least two mass produced 21"scales tenors around at the moment.

[Verne Andru]

There are least two mass produced 21"scales tenors around at the moment.

Which ones? I'm aware of the Kala but it feels like a cheap uke to me, which shouldn't be a surprise since Kala is primarily a uke maker.

My interest is in an electric. ATM it seems the only makers are Soursey and Eastwood and they are both exclusively 23" AFAIK.

[bruce.b]

>>From what I'm gathering here, it's seems 23" is a matter of inertia - that is what the original banjo's were<<

No, the original tenor banjos were melody instruments and were short scale. Later on they were used as chording instruments and went to longer scale, for the most part. IMO, this still holds true, short scale is easier and faster if you're playing melody, Irish trad, etc. 23" in general is better for chord playing and fingerpicking. Just generalizations, obviously. I personally would go by playability with scale length.

The Kala is a very nice instrument for the price, tuned CGDA. I really like mine. It seems well made and mine has a great neck on it. I have the action super low and it plays very easily. It's a very pretty, sweet sounding tenor, not a loud, punchy one.

[Verne Andru]

The Kala is a very nice instrument for the price, tuned CGDA. I really like mine. It seems well made and mine has a great neck on it. I have the action super low and it plays very easily. It's a very pretty, sweet sounding tenor, not a loud, punchy one.

I was curious about them after reading similar raves here. I scored a minty 60's Harmony Monterey that's a 23" scale. I have mine tuned CGDA and must admit the A string is pretty stretched on the longer scale, GDAE is easier to tune to, but the guitar holds CGDA just fine. Tuning machines are supurb.

A guy had a Kala on CL saying it didn't work for Irish Trad, so I suggested we explore a trade. We met and played tried the others out, so I was comparing a solid woods, MIA hand-machine-made archtop with a mostly plywood, CNC'd Asian flattop with the obvious differences in scale. Instrument to instrument, the Kala just didn't stand up to my mind. It might not be fair comparing them, but I've still got my Harmony.

I'm thinking someone doing a 12 to the body, 21" parlor-size would probably hit a sweet spot.

I've heard Larrivee is thinking about bringing out a tenor. That could shake things up.

[fox]

Ozark also make a 21" scale tenor with a choice of cedar or spruce top. I have one with a spruce top and a under bridge pick up.
It is ok, nice neck but over braced in my opinion, apparently the ceda top is a better choice!
http://www.gak.co.uk/en/ozark-3372-t...FcSRGwod4DgMPQ
Then there is the Bucannon that is a top quality instrument, I think that is 21.5" scale. (forum member Lord of the badgers has one) Then we have http://www.fletcherinstruments.com/

[fox]

In the case of the Fletcher, the recommended tuning is GDAE & the strings are 52 36 24 16! That short .52 G might sound great but I feel it makes this quite a specialist instrument, I would love to own one though...

[Charles E.]

I suppose manufacturers won't start making 21" until the market asks for it, and the market [as seen here] is happy with the longer 23" scale, so looks like custom is the only way to go at this point.[/QUOTE]

Hmmmmm.... A gloss black Telecaster tenor with a maple neck and rosewood fingerboard. That with a 21 inch scale would be killer.

[bruce.b]

Get an Earnest! He's a great luthier.

http://www.earnestinstruments.com/tenorcaster/

[Merula]

I'm a violinist/mandolinist and the way you finger those instruments is different to how you finger a guitar. A violinist/mandolinist will have the diatonic scale under their fingers - so a scale will finger 01234 etc., a guitarist, due to the longer scale, has the chromatic scale under their fingers and will finger a major scale something like 0134. With a shorter scale tenor you can just about keep the violin fingering but a longer one you have to switch to guitar fingering for melody.

[Verne Andru]

Get an Earnest! He's a great luthier.

http://www.earnestinstruments.com/tenorcaster/

Thanks, but as noted in this thread -> http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...G-Tenor-Guitar he never bothered to follow-up with me.

[Seonachan]

Hmm, I kinda understand the alternate tuning argument, but coming from mandolin don't really understand why people want an octave mandolin tuning on a guitar, but to each their own.

Why is octave mandolin tuning on a guitar less comprehensible than mandola tuning on a guitar?

[Verne Andru]

Why is octave mandolin tuning on a guitar less comprehensible than mandola tuning on a guitar?

While CGDA is also mandola tuning, the tenor guitar came from banjo, which has a history of using that tuning from inception. While I could have missed something, I've not seen a banjo tuned GDAE, but anything is possible and it wouldn't surprise me.

For me, if I want to play in GDAE I'll grab a mandolin. The allure of the tenor is a different tuning that, when mixed with mandolin, provides harmonies not possible with both tuned the same. A mandolin and a tenor both tuned GDAE would have 12 strings all sounding the same, which tends to get lost in a mix due to phase cancellation. A good example are metal bands with guitars and bass tuned the same, beating away at the same riffs - it gets pretty meh pretty quick IMHO.

But, as I said above, to each their own.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of alternate tuning, just trying to get my head around the dearth of 21" scale tenors when that would seem to be the best scale for an instrument tuned in 5ths.

As we seem to be seeing a revival of the tenor as of late, we have the possibility of taking it beyond the "banjo transition" instrument it started as by embracing it for the strengths inherent to it. But that has to start somewhere, which is why I'm broaching the question in the first place.

[bruce.b]

>>I've not seen a banjo tuned GDAE, but anything is possible and it wouldn't surprise me.<<

GDAE is probably the most common tenor banjo tuning. Most, not all, Irish trad players use it. It's the only tuning I've run into playing Irish trad. If you play the music that was popular when tenor banjo was popular then you most likely use CGDA. I don't play that stuff so I don't see that tuning. The people that do often state that it's a dying artform.

I feel that the tenor guitar has already moved well beyond it's roots as a transition instrument. It works well for so many things and is great for fiddle tunes when tuned GDAE.

[Seonachan]

Irish tenor banjos are typically octave GDAE, and as far as I'm aware the popularity of GDAE tenor guitar tuning comes from Irish trad, so it follows from the banjo just as CGDA did earlier in the US. The tuning also works as a substitute for a 6-string guitar, covering the same range (minus 3 notes on the bass end), for those who don't play guitar for whatever reason. If I'm strumming and singing with no other accompaniment, I find GDAE fits much better than CGDA.

As for scale length, I don't know if you like 21" as an ideal or as a maximum, but there are shorter scale options, such as Jonathan Mann's electric 4-string octave (19", and perhaps he could custom a 21" for you?) or the Risa LP tenor ukulele - 17" scale which works great for mandola tuning.