Gypsy Jazz Advice

[DavidKOS]

I agree. A mandolin was a feasible addition. An electric bass, no. A piano? Maybe. A Hammond organ? No. Et cetera. We agree here, I think.

Thanks for that information on picks.

Yes, we do! If the electric bass sounded round deep it could pass in GJ, but I do prefer string bass in this style. Piano, B3, etc. would make GJ sound like regular jazz.

[SincereCorgi]

Piano, B3, etc. would make GJ sound like regular jazz.

There are some really good recordings of Reinhardt playing with only piano accompaniment, and in bands with pianos. I'd love to try that, but I think it's probably harder to find an authentic '30s-swing pianist these days than a gypsy jazz rhythm player.

[DavidKOS]

There are some really good recordings of Reinhardt playing with only piano accompaniment, and in bands with pianos. I'd love to try that, but I think it's probably harder to find an authentic '30s-swing pianist these days than a gypsy jazz rhythm player.

You might be right - even last Lark camp had lots of guys learning GJ chord playing and the pompe on guitar. However finding a real 30's stride style pianist is harder for sure.

[delsbrother]

Here's a guy with a pretty swingin' 5 string electric mandolin version of "I'll See You In My Dreams".

Well, it should be swingin', he's trying to play Django's solo note for note! (in another take he plays along with the recording)

Is there anyone out there playing Stephane or Eddie South, Michel Warlop, et. al. stuff on mando? I know Tim Kliphuis plays mando, but I don't think I've ever heard him, so I don't know whether he plays GJ on it.

[delsbrother]

Jamie Masefield

[mcgroup53]

Well said

[Peewee]

There are some really good recordings of Reinhardt playing with only piano accompaniment, and in bands with pianos.

The great irony of Gypsy Jazz is that the man most responsible for its creation, didn't play it. Django was playing jazz. He probably played more with drums, piano, horns, etc. than with two guitars and bass. And he was playing bebop influenced electric guitar in the years before he died.

Because pre-war Django is such a dominant figure and Gypsy Jazz is almost entirely a guitar-based genre, I feel like the other instruments get more of a free pass. Nobody's really dogmatic about 'authentic' Gypsy Jazz violin, probably in part because the most prominent player (Grappelli) wasn't a gypsy. If you can play swing violin, nobody's going to complain that you don't sound like Schnuckenack Reinhardt or Titi Winterstein. Same with the bass.

Listening is obviously important and you can steal (and modify) licks from Django, Grappelli, Stochelo Rosenberg, etc. But you can probably steal as much from Jethro Burns. Anybody who's open to mandolin in Gypsy Jazz is probably going to be happy with a solid swing style mandolin. There's not a ton of swing/jazz mandolin instructional material, but there's more than there is for strictly Gypsy Jazz mandolin.

BTW, the piano player on a number of Django recordings is actually Stephane Grappelli.

[SincereCorgi]

The great irony of Gypsy Jazz is that the man most responsible for its creation, didn't play it. Django was playing jazz. He probably played more with drums, piano, horns, etc. than with two guitars and bass. And he was playing bebop influenced electric guitar in the years before he died.

Hear hear. I feel like not much contemporary 'gypsy jazz' sounds like the Hot Club in the '30s; it's almost turned into more of a flamenco style 'Gypsy Kings' thing.

[DavidKOS]

The great irony of Gypsy Jazz is that the man most responsible for its creation, didn't play it. Django was playing jazz. ......

Because pre-war Django is such a dominant figure and Gypsy Jazz is almost entirely a guitar-based genre, I feel like the other instruments get more of a free pass. Nobody's really dogmatic about 'authentic' Gypsy Jazz violin, probably in part because the most prominent player (Grappelli) wasn't a gypsy.

Hear hear. I feel like not much contemporary 'gypsy jazz' sounds like the Hot Club in the '30s; it's almost turned into more of a flamenco style 'Gypsy Kings' thing.

You guys nailed it - Django was a hot jazz player, the French gypsy that played "American music".

So you noticed the irony, eh?

That's why I feel that GJ players should learn some straight swing and Dixieland, and really, bop too, as pointed out, Django was playing bop on electric guitar in his last phase of his career.

There seems to be a post-Gypsy Kings influence, but there's also something else going on as modern GJ seems to diverge more from straight swing. I'm not sure what it is, though.

[Explorer]

At some point when playing in a particular musical style, i noticed that everyone in the large room but two people were extracultural revivalists, and that some of those extracultural revivalists were the ones arguing about authenticity.

As to whether the Gipsy Kings sound is indicative of the actual gitano heritage of those playing it, especially in the context of gadjos discussing authentic gypsy jazz, is something I don't feel qualified to address.

----

Now, Hot Club recordings are something I do love, and I highly recommend learning from the various Hot Club violin materials.

[crisscross]

I highly recommend learning from the various Hot Club violin materials.

To me, violin players seem to be more about music in general, whereas guitar players are all about licks and picking techniques.
That's what I like about the GJ violin book by Martin Noorgard: it presents various musical concepts instead of just licks.
On the other hand, I have a GJ guitar book by German GJ guitar player Bertino Rodmann and that's more about specific licks...

[Explorer]

A friend once pointed out to me that I could have Django and Stéphane patiently playing all their riffs to me at extremely slow speeds, and willingly repeating things as many times as I required.

He had learned an incredible amount by using the half speed function of YouTube to play along with various videos.

Given that many actual gypsies probably learned by ear in the last eight decades, it's only a matter of having the motivation.

[DSDarr]

Listen to Don Stiernberg! or go to one of his workshops. Actually do both and repeat as often as possible. Don's not "GJ" specific of course, but he certainly can swing with the best of them and he plays a lot of the tunes that occur in GJ as well as other swing styles.

David

[DSDarr]

p.s. I second the recommendation for "Getting into Gypsy Jazz Violin" by Martin Norgaard. Fantastic book.

[Jean-Pierre WOOS]

I’m mandolin player, i live in Belgium (EU), and i have the chance to play often with real gypsy musicians.

What have i learned with them ?

#1. At the beginning (12 years ago, after more than 20 years of bluegrass mandolin), they said, about my own way of playing: « It’s not a good way, you are playing like a cow-boy ! »
"First of all, you have to learn to play chords with a gypsy flavor », and guitar players showed me how to do: « Look and listen, then do it ! ». Easy ! (humor !). Forget everything you know about harmony, solfeggio and music theory ! Gypsies enjoy (many many) minor sonorities. The best « minor chord » will be a diminished chord (they are built only with minor thirds). That chord has the same fingering four times along the neck. Now, move one finger (whichever) one fret down: you are now fingering a seventh chord and the root is on the moved finger… So, you know 4 fingerings for the same chord…. Now, back to the diminished chord but move the same finger one fret higher. We have a great gypsy chord used as V9, or II m 6, or VII ∅, or IV6 (b5). For us there are four different chords, but only one at the gypsy camp ! And they use that fingering for V9, or II m 6, or VII ∅, or IV6 (b5)...

#2 Then, « You have to play la pompe for ten years before trying to play a chorus ! ». First, you think this is bull####… and you learn to play Django’s or Stephane’s chorus. And… bang ! « Did Django play the mandolin ? And Stephane ? Learn your own chord fingerings for mandolin and how you switch from one to another then try to create a melody that runs through these fingering: that’s the way Django did it, but on the guitar. » Working that way, you discover "mandolinistic phrasing » built on what we name « arpeggio » but, in reality, built on the image of the chord fingering (with some chromatic notes in order to approach one or another chord-note). and, yes… after ten years you find your first gypsy flavored chorus on your mandolin…

#3 Gypsy people is extremely open minded, but also very jokers: you have to learn to differentiate the joke and the reality…

#4 I would like to clarify a small detail: « Gypsy King » are playing a kind of music from south France and north Spain. It’s not Gypsy Jazz. Here, in Europa, we are speaking about « musique de Gitans ». Django was « Manouche ». Both are, historically, coming from the same country (in northern Asia) but they broke up: the southern Europa welcomes « Les Gitans » and Manitas de Plata, elsewhere in Europa, live « Les Manouches » and Django...

[Jean-Pierre WOOS]

Here is a little summary about those chord building...

[DavidKOS]

I’m mandolin player, i live in Belgium (EU), and i have the chance to play often with real gypsy musicians.

What have i learned with them ?

#1. At the beginning (12 years ago, after more than 20 years of bluegrass mandolin), they said, about my own way of playing: « It’s not a good way, you are playing like a cow-boy ! »
( great advice on chords)

#2 Then, « You have to play la pompe for ten years before trying to play a chorus...........… after ten years you find your first gypsy flavored chorus on your mandolin…

#3 Gypsy people is extremely open minded, but also very jokers: you have to learn to differentiate the joke and the reality…

This bit about the chords voicings and the pompe is right on, and Jean-Pierre speaks from actual experience it seems. I've rarely played GJ with any real Gypsies!

Getting the pompe on mandolin may be a bit tough since the range is a little high, but the rhythm has to be there so you can swing in a solo, too.