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Thread: Broken neck on Gibson Jam Master.

  1. #101
    Registered User darylcrisp's Avatar
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    Default Re: Broken neck on Gibson Jam Master.

    Quote Originally Posted by mirwa View Post
    This is an invisible repair, cost the guy 240
    you guys are good....................real good!
    d

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  3. #102

    Default Re: Broken neck on Gibson Jam Master.

    Thanks, but I do not think we are any better than most other repairers, the point of the pictures was to alleviate the concerns of the original poster, his instrument is an easy repair, and should not hurt his pocket too much

  4. #103

    Default Re: Broken neck on Gibson Jam Master.

    Ok! I'm back, & I do appreciate some of the more positive points about wood, grain, & stress. I'm not a Luthier. The thing that bothers me is that I am in the wrong & it's my fault, until proven innocent for any wrong doing. Case in point, dropping the instrument, hitting it, etc. I've owned this Mandolin, & yes I bought it new, for 5 years. Alot can happen to any material object one has in that time. I can argue my point until the cows come home, & I probably won't phase the Gibson Guitar Company one bit. So I bite the bullet, & I guess I fix it. AS people have mentioned. I can take it to Gryphon Music ( a 5 hour oneway drive ), or Moonstone Guitars (close & a personal friend ). I have corresponded with both parties so far. Really wish I wasn't such a perfectionist, because I will always know that I have a tweaked neck, & not a solid great condition mandolin. Yea! Like The Eagles sing about. " get over it ". Coincidently comes from their Album, " Hell freezes over ". Yea! It took awhile to post some pics, but I'm a musician, not a computer nerd. .......And the Beat Goes On. Later folks.

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  6. #104
    wood butcher Spruce's Avatar
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    Default Re: Broken neck on Gibson Jam Master.

    ...

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  8. #105

    Default Re: Broken neck on Gibson Jam Master.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    I've been thinking about the failed repair that I pictured in #22 of this thread. Here is a diagram of that issue.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Quote Originally Posted by sunburst View Post
    Your diagrams both show end grain butt joints: not good.
    I'm not convinced of the wisdom of the graft approach, but something like this would be better because there is no real end grain joint. The fit would need to be very good (chalk fit) for the repair to be viable.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Further to johns response, heres some photos of one we did today, exactly as per johns description, the ends are ramped in and out, and long grain wood is fitted into the channels

    You should see the other one that came in today for broken headstock repair,

    Steve
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  10. #106
    Certified! Bernie Daniel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Broken neck on Gibson Jam Master.

    Quote Originally Posted by mirwa View Post
    Further to johns response, heres some photos of one we did today, exactly as per johns description, the ends are ramped in and out, and long grain wood is fitted into the channels

    You should see the other one that came in today for broken headstock repair,

    Steve
    Very neat work! For a narrower mandolin neck maybe just one wider graft right down the middle of the neck?
    Bernie
    ____
    Due to current budgetary restrictions the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off -- sorry about the inconvenience.

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  12. #107

    Default Re: Broken neck on Gibson Jam Master.

    Quote Originally Posted by mirwa View Post
    You should see the other one that came in today for broken headstock repair,

    Steve
    Steve,
    You must live in an area that is rough on guitars! LOL

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  14. #108
    Registered User skygazer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Broken neck on Gibson Jam Master.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    Very neat work! For a narrower mandolin neck maybe just one wider graft right down the middle of the neck?
    I shouldn't respond because I'm ignorant, but it seems that with the truss rod in the center you would be better off going up each side to get solid traction for the glue joint.

    Let's see what the experts say.......

  15. #109
    Henry Lawton hank's Avatar
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    Default Re: Broken neck on Gibson Jam Master.

    This thread brings to light guitar and mandolin structural weaknesses that could be addressed proactively instead of after failure. It also points to the complete uselessness of the warranty accompanying new instruments when most claims are associated with impact or temperature. Last but not least it reveals the fact that their are many repairs being made by both qualified luthier's and learn as you go, I can save a buck doing it myself types. The repairs range from excellent, stronger than original to those performed without clean tight fitting joints or appropriate adhesives. As unlikely as it is that none of these repaired instruments are being resold, have you ever seen a broken neck repair mentioned or even as a feature of a renovation. Even if the the repair were documented and disclosed during the first sale after the repair, the information most likely will not be used as a selling point when the instrument is sold again. Repaired plate cracks or mention of stable cracks or separations are given as reveals in advertising usually reducing the instruments value but no matter how strong or well executed, no one wants to purchase a repaired neck without a huge reduction in the cost of the instrument.

    The point the OP makes about burden of proof in a guilty until proven innocent scenario points squarely on the worthlessness of a lifetime warranty. The second point that his mandolin will be compromised/reduced in value unless he replaces the neck with a repair that cost much more than the cheaper glue the shattered pieces together method suggested is also valid. Armchair failure analyst and grocery store availability of hide glue are not helpful to the OP's honest open request for helpful information to resolve this issue.
    "A sudden clash of thunder, the mind doors burst open, and lo, there sits old man Buddha-nature in all his homeliness."
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  17. #110
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Broken neck on Gibson Jam Master.

    I've had a Taylor, a Martin, and a Gibson back to the factory under warranty. The Taylor went back twice. To simply dismiss the warranty as worthless because of of an unknown cause of damage that looks for all the world like a known cause is a pretty broad brush. Whiplash can occur without an instrument falling. If the instrument is in it's case for example in the back of a car, braced in place and the car suddenly stops the instrument can still move in the case. If anyone needs to redesign something perhaps it is the case so the headstock is sandwiched between padded material and not free to move within the case. Forces can cause issues without people doing a bad thing. That's why they are called accidents.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
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    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
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  19. #111
    Henry Lawton hank's Avatar
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    Default Re: Broken neck on Gibson Jam Master.

    Mike can you elaborate on the warranty repairs you had made to show them in context of you not having to prove temperature /humidity or abuse not involved in the approved claim?
    "A sudden clash of thunder, the mind doors burst open, and lo, there sits old man Buddha-nature in all his homeliness."
    CHAO-PIEN

  20. #112
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Broken neck on Gibson Jam Master.

    Sure, lifting bridge, top crack, problem with end pin block, loose brace, neck reset (thanks Martin). Look, as much as some folks want to fault Gibson on this I'm pretty sure any company on face value would have denied that as a warranty claim. I have found that dealing through the dealer you bought it from makes a difference as does the way you approach the company with the problem. I've never had to argue one. That doesn't mean I never will. That same Taylor has developed another problem that I may end up paying for this time, we'll see. There is a serious lump in the fretboard where the neck meets the body. At this point it's an old friend that I hate to see go.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

  21. #113

    Default Re: Broken neck on Gibson Jam Master.

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    At this point it's an old friend that I hate to see go.
    The lump or the guitar?

  22. #114
    Registered User Robert Smyth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Broken neck on Gibson Jam Master.

    Hey Danny, there's also Michael Walker up above Wildwood Music in Arcata. He used to work with Randy Wood in his repair shop in Savannah. He's a super nice guy so between him and Steve at Moonstone, you should be able to get it fixed properly.

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  24. #115
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    Default Re: Broken neck on Gibson Jam Master.

    I second what Robert says...Michael Walker has worked on at least 5 different instruments of mine (mandolins and guitars). I've always been quite happy with his work.

    http://www.mwalkerguitarco.com/

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  26. #116
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Broken neck on Gibson Jam Master.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Mando View Post
    The lump or the guitar?
    The guitar
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

  27. #117

    Default Re: Broken neck on Gibson Jam Master.

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    That same Taylor has developed another problem that I may end up paying for this time, we'll see. There is a serious lump in the fretboard where the neck meets the body.
    If its a bolt on neck, then its likely someone has got the incorrect shims in, badly fitted shims will give a hump at the 14th, or even worse can blow out the front of the rosette.

    If its simply developed over time, then a refret and a neck reset will fix

    Steve

  28. #118

    Default Re: Broken neck on Gibson Jam Master.

    Quote Originally Posted by hank View Post
    The point the OP makes about burden of proof in a guilty until proven innocent scenario points squarely on the worthlessness of a lifetime warranty.
    As someone who deals with almost every manufacturer direct and makes evaluations and decisions on there behalf in the field (gibson included), lifetime warrantys only apply on something done wrong at manufacture.

    They cannot compensate for everything that each individual instrument may go through out in the real world.

    Issues associated with humidity are not covered, but say the top breaking away from the kerfing with no evidence of external trauma is covered, as an assumption is drawn that not enough glue or clamping force was used during assembly, or say the lacquer has dis-coloured on the corners where they used a new glue and its reacted over time, its covered.

    Seeing both sides of the story and being the meat in the sandwich can sometimes be frustrating, we are guitar players as well, and are very attached to our own personal instruments.

    But on the other side, some people are just nuts, we had one who claimed that a split top should be covered under warranty even though his mate threw a can of beer at him and it hit the guitar, his belief was the guitar should be built well enough to absorb the impact, he even took it all the way to the manufacturer and bi-passed us.


    Steve

  29. #119
    Certified! Bernie Daniel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Broken neck on Gibson Jam Master.

    Quote Originally Posted by skygazer View Post
    I shouldn't respond because I'm ignorant, but it seems that with the truss rod in the center you would be better off going up each side to get solid traction for the glue joint.

    Let's see what the experts say.......
    I would propose going down to the truss and essentially putting a new floor of fresh wood (i.e., without a break) on it. I also wonder about the wisdom of making the splint out of ebony or CF instead of maple? Get strength and give up some cosmetics?

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Bernie Daniel; Aug-05-2015 at 10:25pm.
    Bernie
    ____
    Due to current budgetary restrictions the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off -- sorry about the inconvenience.

  30. #120
    Registered User skygazer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Broken neck on Gibson Jam Master.

    Quote Originally Posted by mirwa View Post
    ....But on the other side, some people are just nuts, we had one who claimed that a split top should be covered under warranty even though his mate threw a can of beer at him and it hit the guitar...
    Steve
    This is clearly their own fault, if either of them had drunk the beer the empty can would not have done so much damage! Leaving full cans around is not covered under warranty.

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  32. #121
    Certified! Bernie Daniel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Broken neck on Gibson Jam Master.

    Quote Originally Posted by hank View Post
    This thread brings to light guitar and mandolin structural weaknesses that could be addressed proactively instead of after failure. It also points to the complete uselessness of the warranty accompanying new instruments when most claims are associated with impact or temperature. Last but not least it reveals the fact that their are many repairs being made by both qualified luthier's and learn as you go, I can save a buck doing it myself types. The repairs range from excellent, stronger than original to those performed without clean tight fitting joints or appropriate adhesives. As unlikely as it is that none of these repaired instruments are being resold, have you ever seen a broken neck repair mentioned or even as a feature of a renovation. Even if the the repair were documented and disclosed during the first sale after the repair, the information most likely will not be used as a selling point when the instrument is sold again. Repaired plate cracks or mention of stable cracks or separations are given as reveals in advertising usually reducing the instruments value but no matter how strong or well executed, no one wants to purchase a repaired neck without a huge reduction in the cost of the instrument.

    The point the OP makes about burden of proof in a guilty until proven innocent scenario points squarely on the worthlessness of a lifetime warranty. The second point that his mandolin will be compromised/reduced in value unless he replaces the neck with a repair that cost much more than the cheaper glue the shattered pieces together method suggested is also valid. Armchair failure analyst and grocery store availability of hide glue are not helpful to the OP's honest open request for helpful information to resolve this issue.
    It has been my experience that sellers on the Mandolin Cafe Classifieds have always been up front about repairs. I've never received an instrument that was significantly misrepresented.

    I did have it happen in one case on an eBay purchase where the seller directly misrepresented, in writing a vintage Gibson guitar (claim top in original condition when it actually had about 10 cleats) The matter was dealt with satisfactorily via the resolution process. Even in this case I kind of expect the seller never even looked inside with a mirror & light before making the incorrect claim. So I don't think most sellers misrepresent instruments.

    As to guilty until proven innocent part. The contention that this particular Jam Master had structural flaw and "spontaneously" imploded notwithstanding it is clear that 99% of these breaks occur then the instrument falls off a table or is knocked over. People see it happen in real time usually.

    A company like Gibson (or any other company) can hardly be expected just to take someone's word that the instrument imploded in the case with no supporting evidence -- if they did how could ever they draw the line? They'd have to repair every neck that came in no questions.

    The onus has to be on the owner. If you see a flaw or fault line forming contact someone like your salesperson or at least document with a date marked photo is probably the best approach IMO.
    Bernie
    ____
    Due to current budgetary restrictions the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off -- sorry about the inconvenience.

  33. #122
    Registered User Wes Brandt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Broken neck on Gibson Jam Master.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Brandt View Post
    What ever initial cause… you would think by now Gibson would have done something about what is a truly obvious design flaw… at least they could minimize the cutout… go to 1/4 " nuts ...I've seen some Gibsons with really un-nessesarily large and deep cutouts that go almost through the peg head… take a close look at OPs photos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Mando View Post
    Sssssh! It keeps us repairmen in business.....
    Quote Originally Posted by string dude View Post
    Well I finally heard from Gibson. They seem to think the break is un-repairable, & glueing it would just come apart again. They suggested I buy another mandolin, because it would cost more to fix,than putting on a new neck. …………...
    Apparently, it helps keep Gibson in business too.
    WesBrandtLuthier.com
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  34. #123
    wood butcher Spruce's Avatar
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    Default Re: Broken neck on Gibson Jam Master.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post

    As to guilty until proven innocent part. The contention that this particular Jam Master had structural flaw and "spontaneously" imploded notwithstanding it is clear that 99% of these breaks occur then (sic--"when"?) the instrument falls off a table or is knocked over. People see it happen in real time usually.
    Sorry, but you're dead wrong on that one, Bernie.
    The correct figure for a neck showing that degree--and that type--of structural damage would be a dead-nuts 100%.

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  36. #124

    Default Re: Broken neck on Gibson Jam Master.

    The mandolin was a 14 year project. I guess it's time to replace the Gibson, with a Eastman AR 805CE Archtop guitar. I know my way around the guitar way more than I ever will on the mandolin. Hopefully I can get a decent buck for the used Jam Master. I will be honest about the repair job to the new buyer. There's at least 3 good luthiers, close by, to fix the problem. Hopefully it will be without too much of a financial stress. I was thinking I could hang on to the Gibson, after the repair job, as a Beater/beach mandolin, but all this rhetoric about "The Broken Neck", that I honestly started, is leaving me a little un-settled. I really need to move on. Thanks Mandolin cafe, & especially this builders/repair forum for all your input. On aside note. The last thingI want anyone to think is that I'm some kind of hustler, scam artist, un- reputable individual, & I'm trying to hustle The gibson Guitar people. Not true. I'm a good soul, conscientious, spiritual being. Namaste.

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  38. #125

    Default Re: Broken neck on Gibson Jam Master.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    I would propose going down to the truss and essentially putting a new floor of fresh wood (i.e., without a break) on it. I also wonder about the wisdom of making the splint out of ebony or CF instead of maple? Get strength and give up some cosmetics?

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Back plates do work, but there is also a few issues with them, most times the truss rod is within 3mm of the back of the neck at the thinnest point, therefore the backplate is going to be 3mm or less in thickness and the strength imparted to the repair area is minimal, think of taking some of your soundboard and gluing it over the back of the neck and then shaping it up, it does not leave much for imparted strength.

    I am not saying do not do it, I am simply trying to highlight what can be gained from doing such a method,

    When we fit splines. we take those splines all the way through until we just touch the fretboard, its not required, but for us its the best process we have found.

    Steve

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