Another "buffing out the satin finish" thread

[matthewpartrick]

I'm sure this has been beaten to death, and I've read about it a few times on UMGF/AGF, but I'm looking at a few F Mandolins that are satin finish. In the past I've had success on Martin's satin neck finishes with gentle elbow grease, an old soft cotton tee shirt and Bruce Petros' finish restorer/polish combo. I am very comfortable with guitar set-up and action adjustment etc, but less so with mandolins.

I know everyone has their own take on this equipment-wise, so I'm more interested in this issue as it relates to the bridge and tailpiece. How much of an issue is it going to be trying to buff the finish once the strings are off?

Thanks in advance
Matthew

[mirwa]

One of the issues you need to understand is how the satin finish was created.

You can create a satin finish by spraying gloss and then de-shining the surface (steel wool / micro-mesh ect), these finishes can be returned back to a full gloss via buffing.

But

If the satin finish is a true satin paint (that is the solids component of the lacquer is of a satin build) then you will not get a full gloss from it, regardless of how much you buff it

Steve

[multidon]

I don't really understand where you are going with your actual question. I should think taking off the strings, tailpiece, and bridge would make your job much easier. The only issue I can think of is putting everything back together correctly without doing something dumb like flipping the bridge or saddle the wrong way. Because it's a floating bridge and you may have buffed out the wear spot it may be tricky to get the bridge back in its proper spot. Suggest you get a free copy of Rob Meldrum's ebook on mandolin set up, since you say you are not quite comfortable yet.

As Steve points out quite correctly, modern satin finished have flatting agents added to them. You can buff and buff but the best you can hope for is semi gloss. It will never be a full gloss but some people do like the look of buffed satin. Just be aware that the process removes finish and if the instrument has a thin finish to start with wear through is always a risk.

[Pete Jenner]

I'd just like to reinforce what has been said. A deliberate satin finish is not generally an unbuffed gloss finish.

[renoyd]

There is something "unnatural" looking about many satin finishes and the 3-dimensional beauty of the wood is always almost completely muted. And super glossy nitro can sometimes appear to plasticy and feel sticky. But one can get really nice appearance and feel by rubbing out a satin finish. Just very light, even rubbing with 0000 steel wool, (don't worry, the finish does not come flying off fast with light rubbing with 0000). Then Novus no. 2. The result can look more like a decent varnish finish than nitro after doing this, without the annoying fffft sound of satin/matte finish against your arm or shirt and without that grabby high friction feel of some glossy finishes. Did this with a newer MT and was a little nervous at first, took a few hours, but man, it was
worth it!

[Wes Brandt]

The flat nitros I worked with in the past are opaque when in the can, you have to stir them because the flattening powder settles to the bottom and though you don't obviously see it when it's sprayed on, thats why wood looses the "depth".

There is much written about the refraction of light of different resins used to make violin finishes, some producing more depth than others.

[matthewpartrick]

If the satin finish is a true satin paint (that is the solids component of the lacquer is of a satin build) then you will not get a full gloss from it, regardless of how much you buff it

Steve

Hey, thanks for the reply. I understand the different ways in which one could create a satin finish, and I assume it's the latter, like on a Martin 15 series. I've buffed out a 15 series Martin before with good effect, and it is exactly as you say, the best you get is semi gloss, and of course on the hog guitars there's no pore filler so it never looks like a mirror nitro. But, the main reason I'd do this is to cut to the chase and prevent an uneven satin finish that will inevitably happen with years of playing on the neck, around the lower bout, etc.

Thanks again

[matthewpartrick]

I don't really understand where you are going with your actual question. I should think taking off the strings, tailpiece, and bridge would make your job much easier. The only issue I can think of is putting everything back together correctly without doing something dumb like flipping the bridge or saddle the wrong way. Because it's a floating bridge and you may have buffed out the wear spot it may be tricky to get the bridge back in its proper spot. Suggest you get a free copy of Rob Meldrum's ebook on mandolin set up, since you say you are not quite comfortable yet.

As Steve points out quite correctly, modern satin finished have flatting agents added to them. You can buff and buff but the best you can hope for is semi gloss. It will never be a full gloss but some people do like the look of buffed satin. Just be aware that the process removes finish and if the instrument has a thin finish to start with wear through is always a risk.

Yes this is exactly what I was asking, not so much goofing and putting the bridge back on in the wrong direction, but if it's going to slip on the newly buffed finish when it was used to sitting on a satin finish, that would have inherently provided more friction and therefore less slippage. I don't know, just thinking out loud.

To the second question, that's exactly what I'm looking for, that buffed semi-gloss look evenly across the instrument, so that the neck and lower bout even out before I start to play the heck out of it. You're right I'm sure it will be way easier with the strings and bridge off. Thing is, I didn't know if mandolins had an internal bridge post like violins do, and did I need to worry about that when taking the strings and bridge off. I was big into classical violin/celtic fiddle for many years, and I never changed the strings all at once, rather one at a time so I could keep pressure on the bridge and prevent the internal bridge post from slipping out of place.

Thanks so much for the advice.

[multidon]

No sound post on mandolins, at least there shouldn't be one. They kill sound. If you come across one then something is wrong like somebody tried to correct a sinking top or something.

There should be no problem with the bridge slipping. Full gloss mandolin bridges generally stay in place just fine.

[matthewpartrick]

Great thanks so much for your advice. This leads me to the question "why on earth would a violin have a soundpost?" If a mandolin's top can handle the pressure then why couldn't a violin? I'd bed much less string tension. Maybe the tops are thinner. A great question to geek out about on a Sunday night.

[multidon]

Violins and mandolins are totally different animals, acoustically speaking. The sound post in a violin transfers some vibration to the back, but not as much as you might think. It provides some structural stability to the top, but not as much as you might think. What it does quite a bit is alter nodes of the vibrating top, and moving it can act as a sort of tone control for the violin. The sound post does what it does effectively on a violin because the bowing action causes the strings to vibrate primarily side to side. The mandolin, by contrast, being plucked, the strings vibrate quite a bit up and down. The strings on both instruments actually move at least some in all directions, but they do move differently. Add to this numerous other differences like string tension, string composition, and construction techniques.

Sound posts on mandolin family instruments have been tried. Most agree they are not effective. A violin sounds terrible without one though.

[matthewpartrick]

Don, thanks for the measured and knowledgable reply. You learn something new every day! Like I said, I was big into violin for about 20 years but haven't played in over ten. I played the mandolin in college and am just now picking it back up again.

[Mark Wilson]

I noticed this buffed out satin finish in the classifieds. Looks fine to me - I can see doing it if the satin gets buffed/wore in spots from playing. The back of my satin Pava looks entirely buffed now.
http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/88389

[Grommet]

I just finished buffing out my Pava since brushing of my fingertips left a perfect teardrop pickguard shaped shiny area on the satin finished top below the treble strings. After removing strings, tailpiece and tuners, I buffed it out using McGuires #7 and a pad made from folded T-shirt cotton. After researching pulling and re-installing the tuner bushings, I opted to leave those in-situ. I made a little jig using cardstock and a spare bridge base to assist in getting the bridge back in the right spot. Whole process only took a bit more than couple of hours and it came out real nice. to further protect my baby I have installed an abbreviated ebony pickguard and armrest from Doug Edwards at Hill Country Stringworks. Took this opportunity to try some DR MD11 strings on her. Nice strings, might get another set or two , but will likely give the GHS A-270's another go first. I was very happy with the satin finish, so I wouldn't have buffed it out if it hadn't been for the wear.

Scott

[Mark Wilson]

I just finished buffing out my Pava since brushing of my fingertips left a perfect teardrop pickguard shaped shiny area on the satin finished top below the treble strings.

That sounded easy. Do you have before/after pictures?

[Grommet]

Sorry,I didn't take any before pics. It was a pretty easy process. Since it is recommended not to let the McGuires #7 dry on the surface, I worked small areas like 1/4 or 1/2 of the top or back at a time. Also kept enough polish on the rag to keep it moist. The neck was mostly already shined from wear, but I spent some time on the heel area. I did the rims in roughly 6 inch sections. After removing the tuners and TRC, the front and back of the headstock posed no real problems. Since I left the bushings in place, you can just barely make out a very thin ring of satin finish around each of those (maybe 1/32"), but only looking up close. I doubt my buff job is equal to the one Max or Laurie did on the F9 shown earlier in the thread, but since I couldn't zoom in on the F9 pics I can't be sure. I can say that the shiny area left by my finger brushing was no longer apparent.

Scott

[Mark Wilson]

I've got the same shiny spot.

[matthewpartrick]

It worked out pretty well but I'm having a hard time getting good photos. I'll update when I can.