Beginner Etiquette and Joining a Group?

[Al Trujillo]

I took a peek into a Workshop listed here on MC and in bold print was the statement - "Novices Up, No Beginners".

No one wants to be told, "Move along and come back when you know how to play"....I'm at that point with my playing where I need the constructive help of other mandolin player(s).

But, just like in high school weeks before the prom, I'm not sure how to ask.

[Ky Slim]

Is there any contact info in the listing for the workshop? If so, just reach out and ask what they mean with the distinction between beginner and novice, tell them where you are with your playing and see what they think. You have nothing to lose and you could learn a lot by going. Good Luck!

[Lord of the Badgers]

Definitely talk to them.
No substitute for just ringing them up and asking for more clarity!
Just ask them what they mean by it!

Hope it goes ok

[JeffD]

Definitely talk to them.
No substitute for just ringing them up and asking for more clarity!
Just ask them what they mean by it!

I find it helpful to have real concrete objective questions, so my nervousness doesn't get in the way. Examples:

What specifically do you expect I should be able to do coming in, so as to benefit the most from your workshop?
What materials can I become familiar with ahead of time, in order to be better prepared for your workshop?

Much better than what I did once (with terrible results), which is:

I can do this and this, and on a good day this. Do you think I am good enough, or will I be wasting time in your workshop?

[Randi Gormley]

It wouldn't hurt to ask for their definition of 'beginner' and 'novice,' by the way. You may be closer than you think.

I usually attend CIAW, which is an Irish traditional music camp that lasts a week. Mandolin, not being as traditional an Irish instrument as, say, button accordion, usually gets a single class, often taught by a banjo or guitar player who "also" plays mandolin and the classes are all levels combined. By definition, they request that attendees know at least 8 or 10 tunes (at any speed) by heart before they sign up (or they used to, they're under new management now). That was their definition of 'novice.' If you knew you were going, you'd spend a month or so getting those tunes down and you were good to go.

With an all-level mandolin class, though, you never knew what you were getting when you walked into class the first day. I'm relatively proficient these days at playing Irish music at session speeds and I know a couple hundred tunes. I don't mind taking classes with novices because there's always stuff to learn. I will bail if I'm the only one who has played longer than 6 months, though, which was the case one year.

But I do recall one time a woman had signed up for the class and brought along her mandolin --- which she had picked up that morning at a music store on the way to camp. She didn't even know how to hold the instrument, how to tune it, how to fret it or even that most people use a pick. She was a beginner. And while she shouldn't have been at CIAW, she had paid her money and expected the teacher's time during class.

The teacher very kindly spent a third of the first class showing her the basics of the mandolin while the rest of us sat around trying not to noodle. The second day, he handed her a chord chart and sent her to figure stuff out on her own in a corner, but still spent a good 20 or 30 minutes with her while we were all allegedly going over a new tune he had given us. I think she was gone by the third or fourth day, but having a beginner in the class, as opposed to a novice, didn't serve any of us particularly well. Just a thought.

[Lord of the Badgers]

It wouldn't hurt to ask for their definition of 'beginner' and 'novice,' by the way.

yeah that's what I meant. It's a conversation opener. Let the conversation flow a bit - don't over prepare. Over-preparing actually makes one MORE nervous!

[AlanN]

20 years ago, Butch Baldassari ran his World of Mandolin seminar, a 3-day teaching event in Nashville. He sent out a questionnaire before-hand, to determine skill level and where you were on the instrument. The expectation was that you know how to play, at least a little bit. Despite that, a few showed up who had no idea. Paying customers, all. Some of the sessions fell down to the LCD, where Butch had to please all the pickers with very basic teaching (and curtail the noodling...). He did have guests come in - Compton, Roland White, Ron McCoury - to take some of the more advanced pickers aside. It was tough for him to juggle and please everybody. Oh, and Monroe stopped in for half a day.

Talk to the organizer, find out what's what beforehand.

[EdHanrahan]

To me, "novices up" is relatively inclusive, and leaving out only those who don't know at least a C and G scale, and maybe the related 2-finger chords.

A REAL important question to ask, probably varying based on the genre of the workshop, is whether notation reading is expected, which can be a roadblock even to fairly strong players. Or is tab provided? But as noted above, asking is essential.

(Aside and not music but maybe relevant: About 12 years ago, I was registering with a new-to-me ski-instruction group for a weekend-long clinic, with classes at several skill levels. -Hey, I only started skiing at age 40 or so!- Not being sure where my skills fell in their estimation [IMHO, strong compared to the general public, but surely not so much compared to ski instructors], I discussed my reservations and experience by phone, and... ended up in a class where I was the only student NOT a certified ski instructor! Two of the eight "students" were themselves PSIA level-III instructors, about as high as you can get. So it wasn't always easy to keep up, but I did and am STILL amazed at how much I learned in that one weekend! I'll be quiet now.)

[Hudmister]

I'm not sure if that is an analogy or a metaphor but a good story anyway. I believe there is a distinction between beginner and novice to be pointed out here and it is a fine line. If you're a beginner you might think you're a novice but if you're a novice, you probably think you're pretty good.

[wildpikr]

FWIW Steve Kaufman's Acoustic Kamp has a description page to help someone evaluate their own playing level...here's the link:
http://www.flatpik.com/skill-level

The workshop you're considering may be trying to avoid the true beginners who really know nothing about the instrument.

Just my two cents...hope this helps.

I took a peek into a Workshop listed here on MC and in bold print was the statement - "Novices Up, No Beginners".

No one wants to be told, "Move along and come back when you know how to play"....I'm at that point with my playing where I need the constructive help of other mandolin player(s).

But, just like in high school weeks before the prom, I'm not sure how to ask.

[Al Trujillo]

It wouldn't hurt to ask for their definition of 'beginner' and 'novice,' by the way. You may be closer than you think.

The teacher very kindly spent a third of the first class showing her the basics of the mandolin while the rest of us sat around trying not to noodle.

... but having a beginner in the class, as opposed to a novice, didn't serve any of us particularly well. Just a thought.

I definitely DON'T want to be THAT person and I think this is my greatest fear; that I would hold back a group.

I'm not sure if that is an analogy or a metaphor but a good story anyway. I believe there is a distinction between beginner and novice to be pointed out here and it is a fine line. If you're a beginner you might think you're a novice but if you're a novice, you probably think you're pretty good.

An excellent point and one I should have made with my first post. Not having another (or several) others to play/jam with I am quite uncertain of where my skill set is at.

[Paul Busman]

Even if you're too much of a beginner to keep up and would hold the rest of the group back, it would never hurt just to go and listen if they'd allow it. You're sure to learn something valuable. Once you're there, you can decide if you can keep up.

[SincereCorgi]

Just the fact that you're aware of 'that guy' and understand home lame he is means that you'll probably do fine. I've been to workshops for stuff like advanced jazz and blues guitar that got beyond my guitar abilities- nobody minded because I politely kept quiet and just tried to absorb what I could. Worst case scenario for a jam group is that you play rhythm, and if it's still way beyond you, you look at your watch, smile and thank everybody and take off after a few songs.

[nick hyserman]

Just the fact that you're aware of 'that guy' and understand home lame he is means that you'll probably do fine. I've been to workshops for stuff like advanced jazz and blues guitar that got beyond my guitar abilities- nobody minded because I politely kept quiet and just tried to absorb what I could. Worst case scenario for a jam group is that you play rhythm, and if it's still way beyond you, you look at your watch, smile and thank everybody and take off after a few songs.

Sounds like snobs to me. All the folks I hang around with are more than willing to
help and bring beginners along. You have to start someplace. Find a jam
where you are welcome.

[Al Trujillo]

Sounds like snobs to me. All the folks I hang around with are more than willing to
help and bring beginners along. You have to start someplace. Find a jam
where you are welcome.

As far as a workshop with a curriculum I pretty much agree with Sincere.

I've taught, or participated in courses where one or two are not fully prepared for the vigors of the program. Understanding the expectations of the student and instructor goes a long way in assuring everyone enjoys the course. Like I said before, I don't want to be the one who holds everyone.

[allenhopkins]

Tony Saletan taught a Beginning Guitar class at Pinewoods Camp Folk Music Week decades ago. The first day, he (tongue in cheek) started by demonstrating how to open the case and take the instrument out. If that's the definition of "beginner," knowing a few chords would make you at least a "novice."

The workshop "no beginners" notice should at least specify, by either outlining the proposed curriculum, or by giving a list of criteria for "novice," what skill level it's aimed at. Agree that having a participant who is at a much lower skill level than the others -- and who expects, and gets, extended individual instruction at the others' expense -- can be detrimental to progress, and mighty frustrating to those who sit while the "slowest ship in the convoy" is attended to. A limited-skills workshop participant can learn a lot just by listening, absorbing, and trying to do as much as his/her skills and experience permit. Holding the whole group back by getting extended special treatment is what should be avoided.

[Petrus]

I definitely DON'T want to be THAT person and I think this is my greatest fear; that I would hold back a group.