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Thread: Afraid to play for others - advice?

  1. #51

    Default Re: Afraid to play for others - advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by allenhopkins View Post
    Play a bit below your skill level, if possible; material you find relatively familiar, "easy" and unchallenging. The latest challenge your instructor gave you, is going to fall apart in front of your audience when your "stage fright" kicks in.

    My rule of thumb is that I can do about 75% of what I do in my best rehearsal/practice, in front of an audience. So if I'm playing at that 75% level, let me select repertoire that I can do competently using 75% of what I know and can play.
    Yes, I always practice with the metronome faster and....I have a ham sandwich before I play....

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  3. #52
    Middle-Aged Old-Timer Tobin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Afraid to play for others - advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by allenhopkins View Post
    Play a bit below your skill level, if possible; material you find relatively familiar, "easy" and unchallenging. The latest challenge your instructor gave you, is going to fall apart in front of your audience when your "stage fright" kicks in.

    My rule of thumb is that I can do about 75% of what I do in my best rehearsal/practice, in front of an audience. So if I'm playing at that 75% level, let me select repertoire that I can do competently using 75% of what I know and can play.
    Yeah, 75% sounds about right. I'll start to think I'm really good when I play at the house, and then I try the same thing in a public setting, at the same speed, and it just doesn't work.

    What I do find, though, is that when I'm playing in front of others, I get into the "zone" after about an hour. I guess that's how long it takes for my jitters to subside, and for me to get nice and warmed up, loose, and comfortable in that setting. My tone improves, and I can start playing more smoothly and quickly. That's when I can start to break past that 75% mark and start to play more like I know I can. So it's probably a good strategy for public playing: start out slow and easy, then ramp it up as you find yourself getting more fluid.

    But - I would make a distinction between playing "as a performance for an audience" and "within a group in a jam/session". For the former, it obviously makes sense to stay within one's comfort zone to avoid crashing and burning. For the latter, I think occasionally crashing and burning is an important and necessary thing. Assuming you're playing with friends who are supportive and forgiving, it's the best way to get better. Not only better at playing, but better at playing with others. Learning how to crash and burn (and survive it) is very, very important. And you just can't learn it without actually crashing and burning. If you always play below your skill level with others, you'll never increase your skill level in that environment.

  4. #53

    Default Re: Afraid to play for others - advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobin View Post
    But - I would make a distinction between playing "as a performance for an audience" and "within a group in a jam/session".
    I understand your reasoning, within the scenario. But I think eventually you want there to be no distinction between jamming and gigging. Sure there's always new stuff to learn/steal. And it's not like I have it mastered, but I want the audience to be as engaged as fellow jammers.
    As always, Alan has a real good point about not over extending. But still there are chances I'll take, and those that I won't. Our gigs are much like jams, as it goes around, every player can call a tune in turn. You never know what's coming. But it's a good chance you've done it before. But hey, if not, we can fake to the point of acceptability. A) It keeps you honest, and on your toes. B) There's no build up of ego or guile. There's just no room for it. It depends on the gig, but I have explained our format to the audience. Because I think there's a fascination about jams to the uninitiated. I remember it myself.

  5. #54
    Registered User Randy Linam's Avatar
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    Default Re: Afraid to play for others - advice?

    I am certainly in no position to be giving mandolin instruction, or in your case advise. However, as a Dale Carnegie graduate with highest honors I can offer this advise.

    As humans we are (or should be) our own greatest critic. As my grandfather taught me; "Never allow someone to expect more from you than you expect from yourself. Always give more than what is expected." With that in mind I will offer the following advise. Whenever you are playing before others, play to and for yourself knowing that this will translate to your best performance for your audience. When you have done this you have done all you can do.

    I hope I made sense and provided help,
    Randy
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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Afraid to play for others - advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Linam View Post
    Whenever you are playing before others, play to and for yourself knowing that this will translate to your best performance for your audience.
    Sounds comforting. One good way to practise that attitude is recording yourself and listening to the recordings afterwards.
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  8. #56

    Default Re: Afraid to play for others - advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobin View Post
    When you make a mistake, you feel like you need to get that pattern correct so you can keep going. But one of the things you just HAVE to learn is to blow through a mistake and get back on track.
    But if you just keep going when you make a mistake, don't you reinforce the mistake?

    You'd better learn how to keep going with everyone else, even when you make a boo-boo.
    How do you learn to do this? What exercises would you suggest? When I flub a note, the result is total paralysis. I have to start from the top, or the muscle memory just doesn't kick in.

    But jumping back in is a crucial, yet under-emphasized, skill that new players must master before being able to play with others.
    Exactly why I don't play with others. I have no idea how to practice for the unpredictable.

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    Unfamous String Buster Beanzy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Afraid to play for others - advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by hatta View Post
    But if you just keep going when you make a mistake, don't you reinforce the mistake?
    Just make a note of it in your head then later when you practice isolate just the problematic parts to sort those. Most people will play through a tune a few times just to get a feel for where the knobbly bits are. Then you isolate those and practice correcting those. Then you play through and this time you play the corrected bit.

    By playing through the tune without hanging up on the mistake and thus playing it repeatedly you avoid reinforcing the error in the context of the tune. By isolating it in practice and zooming in on how and why it goes wrong you learn what needs to be untangled to play it correctly. Many beginners think that practice is just repeatedly playing through a whole piece and somehow it will come out ok eventually, obviously it won't. So this is one of those areas where you need to be able to play past an error when playing through a tune, but zoom in in great detail when analysing and correcting and have the hunger to get it right by repeatedly unpicking and practicing the problems until you actively correct them.
    So when you perform you won't be in practice mode but you're likely to know where you went wrong when you think back on the performance and that would definitely flag itself up as something to work on in your practicing.
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    Default Re: Afraid to play for others - advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by hatta View Post
    Exactly why I don't play with others. I have no idea how to practice for the unpredictable.
    Yeah but... That's why playing in a casual jam session is so good for you: nobody expects perfection, and all of them have been where you currently are. Nobody is going to point fingers at you and criticize. If they did and were honest, they'd have to say: "Oooh, you're as bad as I used to be, and sometimes still am."

    "Practicing for the unpredictable" is something that professionals might consider worrying about but probably don't, because it's actually called "gaining experience". We mere mortals are free to just grin, shrug our shoulders, and make a silly face that says: "Whoops! I'll try to get it right next time." And that would be a prime example of gaining experience!

    Do keep in mind that our mistakes are far more obvious to each of us than they are to anyone else.
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  11. #59
    Middle-Aged Old-Timer Tobin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Afraid to play for others - advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by hatta View Post
    But if you just keep going when you make a mistake, don't you reinforce the mistake?
    If you're making the mistake over and over, and always blowing through it when you practice, yes. You'd be reinforcing it. I'm not saying you should always ignore mistakes. But you do need to learn how to move past them when needed. Otherwise you'll only be reinforcing your inability to get through a mistake.

    In other words, learning to make mistakes in public (which everyone does, even the professionals) is just as important, if not MORE important than learning how to play without mistakes.

    How do you learn to do this? What exercises would you suggest? When I flub a note, the result is total paralysis. I have to start from the top, or the muscle memory just doesn't kick in.
    I think your paralysis is the result of teaching yourself to be paralyzed by mistakes. You've probably been thinking that you MUST correct the mistake before moving on, or you'll be reinforcing the mistake, as you mentioned. But what you're really teaching yourself is to stop when your brain registers something that's not perfect.

    I don't necessarily have any exercises for this, since the point is to learn how to handle the unexpected. And you can't very well create an exercise to practice unexpected things, or they won't be unexpected. But what helped me get past the paralysis reaction is to start forcing my brain to think at least one or two notes ahead of where my hands are. For one thing, it really helped my fluidity and speed in playing. But it also helped me get past those hiccups. By the time my hands have made the mistake, my brain is already past it, and can continue on with where it should be going. Even when I do completely mess up, I try to jump back in at the beginning of the next measure, in a recognizable spot.

    So all I could recommend is that you keep doing what you're doing, but don't let the music stop any longer than it takes to find your way back in. The best way to do this is to play along with a backing track or recording, where you can set it at a tempo you're comfortable with. When you flub, the music you're playing along with doesn't stop. It'll force you to learn how to come back in, and eventually not stop at all.


    Quote Originally Posted by Beanzy View Post
    Just make a note of it in your head then later when you practice isolate just the problematic parts to sort those. Most people will play through a tune a few times just to get a feel for where the knobbly bits are. Then you isolate those and practice correcting those. Then you play through and this time you play the corrected bit.

    By playing through the tune without hanging up on the mistake and thus playing it repeatedly you avoid reinforcing the error in the context of the tune. By isolating it in practice and zooming in on how and why it goes wrong you learn what needs to be untangled to play it correctly. Many beginners think that practice is just repeatedly playing through a whole piece and somehow it will come out ok eventually, obviously it won't. So this is one of those areas where you need to be able to play past an error when playing through a tune, but zoom in in great detail when analysing and correcting and have the hunger to get it right by repeatedly unpicking and practicing the problems until you actively correct them.
    So when you perform you won't be in practice mode but you're likely to know where you went wrong when you think back on the performance and that would definitely flag itself up as something to work on in your practicing.
    Exactly. When I find a tricky spot in a tune, I'll note it in my head and come back to it so I can isolate it and play it many, many times until I've developed a 'muscle memory' for that particular spot. I turn it into an exercise. It may take me 5 or 10 minutes. But then I incorporate it back into the tune as a whole.

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    Default Re: Afraid to play for others - advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by hatta View Post
    How do you learn to do this? What exercises would you suggest? When I flub a note, the result is total paralysis.
    Playing with a metronome can help you stay on the beat if you flub. Backing tracks work even better.

  13. #61

    Default Re: Afraid to play for others - advice?

    One of the key things in all this advice about not stopping, is how we prioritize the beat. Slow down if you have to, but preserve the beat. You really only have to play one note correctly, that's the one at the end of the phrase. John Hartford is smiling down saying, "yeah buddy."

  14. #62
    two t's and one hyphen fatt-dad's Avatar
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    Default Re: Afraid to play for others - advice?

    do you ever play outside and wonder if somebody is listening? Nobody in sight. . .

    I sort of do this, as if nobody or anybody is listening. My imaginary audience, that is.

    f-d
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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Afraid to play for others - advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by hatta View Post
    But if you just keep going when you make a mistake, don't you reinforce the mistake?.
    No, not at all. If you practice the mistake, well yea, that would be reinforcement.


    Young children and some animals play a fantasy game where they figure if they can't see you, you can't see them. Its ridiculous, but likely some genetic starting point.

    Well it applies here. If you ignore your mistakes, just pretend they didn't happen, the audience likely will not notice them. I am constantly surprised how many screw-ups I make that nobody notices. (Makes me wonder sometimes, the justification for working so hard on getting it right.)

    Seriously, the audience is not nearly aware of what you are doing and where you are going. If you just keep playing as if nothing happened, there is an excellent chance they will figure nothing happened.
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    Work in Progress Ed Goist's Avatar
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    Default Re: Afraid to play for others - advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by farmerjones View Post
    One of the key things in all this advice about not stopping, is how we prioritize the beat. Slow down if you have to, but preserve the beat. You really only have to play one note correctly, that's the one at the end of the phrase. John Hartford is smiling down saying, "yeah buddy."
    ^ - This! Best advice in a great thread filled with wonderful advice. Well done all.
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    Happy Picker Robert B's Avatar
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    Default Re: Afraid to play for others - advice?

    Shooting for perfection will invariably result in failure. Seek instead to learn from mistakes by seeing them as areas that are not yet flowing fluently. It is an indication to practice a particular passage slowly, gradually bringing the speed up to tempo, until it becomes as natural as that which you play well. - and, Yes... play for your own enjoyment.... it is your passion for what you play that comes through even if your piece is riddled with fumbles.
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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Afraid to play for others - advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by hatta View Post
    But if you just keep going when you make a mistake, don't you reinforce the mistake?
    .
    That is the difference between practicing and playing. In practicing, you are supposed to stop and work out your mistakes. In practice, you can stop, start over, and over.

    But when playing, as in with or for others, you don't stop, you keep going as if you meant it.
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    Default Re: Afraid to play for others - advice?

    Generally, a tune will go through several stages.... first, when you are just learning "where to put your fingers", and timing, pick moves, etc... then "smoothing it out" and getting it up to speed, then "revision and final polishing" where you really start to get it down. At that point, your fingers should be pretty much sorted out and you should be concentrating on TONE, DYNAMICS and stuff like that. The key thing is that this is an active learning process. You have to take mental notes along the way, and learn to know what needs more work. That is the difference between positive, serious, constructive practice and mindless repetition!
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    Default Re: Afraid to play for others - advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by hatta View Post
    But if you just keep going when you make a mistake, don't you reinforce the mistake?
    Definitely not. If you keep going, you are developing flexibility and improvisational skills. In other words "musicianship". Another way to do this is to learn variations. If one learns a tune as only 1 possible correct string of notes in sequence, playing a wrong note can throw the tune into "disarray". A tune learned with variations continually departs and recombines without losing the tune. This is part of the art or creativity of music and really fun to challenge yourself with.

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    Default Re: Afraid to play for others - advice?

    Have had some friends I played with, in places that had no audience but the Bartender , a Week day evening

    Like Little Irish village Pubs, & the Local Moose Lodge, for years .. was less playing for them than playing with them ..

    Musical Small Talk. sitting around a Table , not facing outward.

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  26. #70

    Default Re: Afraid to play for others - advice?

    I have to agree with everyone suggesting playing with others instead of for them.

    The thing with playing WITH others is that you will inevitably end up playing a little bit FOR them eventually. By then these people are probably your friends and they're not going to chew you up and spit you out. Eventually maybe your group will play to an audience and you can start a tune in front of the audience and/or play a break in front of the audience if you play that kind of music.

    It's really better in my opinion to try and learn tunes on the fly with a group if you have that sort of group available. This really helps you learn how to play the music rather than play some memorized notes that have "right notes" and "wrong notes."

  27. #71
    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Afraid to play for others - advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes View Post
    The thing with playing WITH others is that you will inevitably end up playing a little bit FOR them eventually. By then these people are probably your friends and they're not going to chew you up and spit you out.
    ...OTOH, your friends are probably the ones you least want to disappoint
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    Gummy Bears and Scotch BrianWilliam's Avatar
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    Default Re: Afraid to play for others - advice?

    My favorite stage practice is on the street. Maybe you should busk a bit?

  29. #73

    Default Re: Afraid to play for others - advice?

    Playing with others seems far more terrifying than playing for others.

  30. #74
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    Default Re: Afraid to play for others - advice?

    Quote Originally Posted by hatta View Post
    Playing with others seems far more terrifying than playing for others.
    Well I don't know. I guess I can see that.

    The thing is, however, it is far more rewarding. The others are entering into the activity with you. They are coconspirators. What ever acknowledgement or praise you get from coconspirators is likely to be more honest, more insightful, and more informed than that of an audience member who keeps thinking its a ukulele. They know what you are struggling with and are sympathetic.

    And that all aside, coconspirators are taking a risk, two risks, one that they can keep up with you, and two that you will make them look good. Neither is guaranteed. They are putting up something, and so are more deserving of your efforts than a passive audience.

    Of course if its a paying audience that is an entirely different matter.
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  32. #75

    Default Re: Afraid to play for others - advice?

    I went from not being able to play in a park if there was a dog walker 100 yards away. To being able to flop down the tailgate and play while my DW shops. I called it "bravery practice."
    And think about it. One can really control one's audience interaction, more than you think. Some parks and parking lots are huge. You can park in the least trafficked area. Then gradually park closer. You'll be gaining bravery, and your significant other will thank you for it.

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