Holes: an old question from a new member

[Resolve]

If there are some threads existing that discuss the difference one can expect from the f holes as opposed to the oval hole, I'd appreciate the link.

As I've dug into the world of mandolins, I'm learning a lot but with each bit of learning comes more questions.

I've settled on the idea of an A style mandolin (thank you SO much for all the information!) but want one that will be most versatile since at this point I really don't know what kind of music I want to play.

From what I understand the tones will be different. I also think I understand that the sustain is longer with an oval (something I'd probably appreciate being a guitar player). The pros of the f holes seem to include that it makes the mandolin louder...is that correct?

Beyond that, what should I be considering as I try to make this choice?

[Theo W.]

Most of the time I find that the difference between (for example) an Eastman 504 and an Eastman 505 has more to do with the wood being different than the holes being different. I've always found that the person standing in front of an f-hole instrument gets a more direct sound than an oval hole would produce. YMMV though. I've played Flatiron oval-mandolas that were fatal to listeners at 5-feet.

But the things you said were right too, in theory.

Good luck in your search!

[Jon Hall]

I was facing the same decision when I bought my mandolin. I settled on an A model with f holes because I thought it would be more versatile. Seventeen years later, I'm sure I made the right decision as far as the music I play.

[JeffD]

F holes generally make a more percussive sound that is more focused. A chop chord jumps out of the instrument. The individual notes are more distinct and don't blend as much as the oval hole, in my experience. That is part of what makes the ff holes particularly appropriate for bluegrass.

My general preference is for oval hole instruments. I think they just seem to blend more seamlessly when I play with others. I have both, and play both, and appreciate both for what they do, but I think the oval is more suited for the wide variety and not a lot of bluegrass that I play.

Its a subtle thing, and its hard to describe, but it matters to many,

The best description I have heard is that an audience hears an ff hole mandolin and says "that mandolin sounds great". An audience of an oval hole mandolin says "that music sounds great."

Listen to both, play both, and eventually buy both.

[Resolve]

I was facing the same decision when I bought my mandolin. I settled on an A model with f holes because I thought it would be more versatile. Seventeen years later, I'm sure I made the right decision as far as the music I play.

So many decisions, right?

What kind of music do you play?

[Eric F.]

Here is a description that might help.

[UsuallyPickin]

Well ... if you truly fall in love with playing a mandolin you will probably, eventually, wind up owning both styles. I started with an oval hole and changed after a couple of years to an F hole. I play an F hole mostly now. I like the pop in the chop. The ring of an A is tonally sweet but ultimately unused in a faster paced style. Though admittedly it is preferred in Irish music. Sooooo buy the one you like to hear and play. It will encourage you to play more.... R/

[Resolve]

Here is a description that might help.

Loved the analogy (in my professional life I am a speech pathologist!!) but it sure doesn't help my ability to narrow down my selection to "just one". LOL. I suppose in some ways, albeit much more subtle, it's why good guitar players have both acoustic and electric guitars.

I get the idea of F holes delivering a more focused sound and the more "open" oval hole delivering a more diffused sound.

Maybe before I decide on an instrument (because I am determined to limit my selection to just one despite the obvious wisdom of getting two) I should do a bit more listening to various mandolin players to see what appeals most to me.

A part of me wants to just make this a very individual personal musical outlet (which suggests I might want an oval hole) but another part of me knows how much fun it is to play with others (which suggests the f hole).

[LongBlackVeil]

Listening to the music on your page, id say that the oval would fit really well in that context.

So would an f hole though, so it's up to you. The thing about the oval hole is that you won't be able to get that chopping sound if you've listened to any bluegrass and you want that sound, then your choice is made for you, f hole is the way to go. F hole is the way to go if you think you might play any bluegrass at all

Other than those two notes, I love the oval. The absolutely best thing would be to get yourself to a mandolin store that has both ovals and fs, along with your band mate, and see which one fits best

[mandognome]

My personal journey: for a long time I gravitated to the look and tone of flat-top oval hole instruments. They sounded more "mountain" to me, and for folky music and Celtic they were just right.

As my ears and playing developed and I realized I wanted to play quite percussively, the ff hole instrument became a much better choice for me. It took me a while to appreciate the subtleties if ff hole tone on single note lines, but I just love it now, and even admit I (totally subjective) find some oval hole mandos very course sounding.

I find ff hole mandolins more versatile for the reason that they work well percussively, and although they may not be the traditional choice for Celtic, jazz, and folk, they certainly work in those genres. I love Tim O'Brien's tone on Irish tunes on an f-hole instrument.

I feel that an oval hole mandolin "works" decidedly less well for me in percussion-y music like bluegrass, although to be fair my oval hole experience is with flat-top instruments, mostly. An arch top and back may allow more percussive tone.

I wonder if others may generally agree on the idea that ff-holes may be a tad more versatile across genres?

Tone is very personal--you have to go with what lights you up, and know that may change over time.

[Capt. E]

I have played both f and oval, but at this time my preferred mandolin is a 1920 Gibson A oval hole. It just speaks to me.

One of my favorite bands has been "The Gourds" and the mandolin played is a vintage Gibson oval hole A. It is perfect for that band, which is less bluegrass and more roots-rock.
Chris Thile, the leader of Nickel Creek, plays a truely fine vintage Gibson F-5 signed by Lloyd Loar (you'll get to know that name).
Levon Helm, famous leader of "The Band" played mostly an f hole, but has played an oval hole at times.
An oval hole A would be most common in europe and especially for Irish music.

Take a look at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3b7kS9DbYQU
Ben is a bluegrass player and the Ellis oval he is playing sounds pretty nice to me. Of course, Tom Ellis is an upper tier builder, renown for his wonderful instruments.

My recommendation is to get a good quality mandolin of either type as you learn. An easy playing well built instrument is far more important that whether it is an A or F

[TonyP]

Just to confuse matters more.....

Early in my cross over from guitar to mandolin two of my favs were Andy Statman and Peter Ostroushko. Both played old Gibson oval A's. Both had incredible tone and techniques. But neither played bluegrass competing with resonator banjos, fiddles and Dobro's. I went to ff holes but tried for years to find an oval A that had that tone and finally gave up.

What I finally found was a Czech made ff hole with cedar top and mahogany back and sides that has the warmth and depth of the ovals, but the chop and a little more focus than an oval. It's great for small ensembles where there's no resonator banjo. And if I'm with some folks that are sensitive to volume levels. But if it's going to be your usual jammy dog fight I'll go with the 'ol F5 because I don't have to work so hard to hear myself.

[Resolve]

. The thing about the oval hole is that you won't be able to get that chopping sound if you've listened to any bluegrass and you want that sound, then your choice is made for you, f hole is the way to go. F hole is the way to go if you think you might play any bluegrass at all

That helps. I suspect that yes I will want to delve into some bluegrass... although not JUST bluegrass.

That said, it would appear that my best choice for "first instrument" would logically be the A-style mandolin with ff holes. It will get me going and then... well... we'll see!

As I said, I'm not discussing this with my duo partner...I want to make this decision for "me", not for our duo. If I get good enough for mandolin to become a part of our duo's music, I know it would be welcomed but that's not why I'm interested in the instrument. Kind of a long reflective story best told over a glass of wine. LOL.

[JeffD]

I wonder if others may generally agree on the idea that ff-holes may be a tad more versatile across genres?

I think just the opposite, actually. The ff holes are great for bluegrass, and genres that feature mandolins taking solo breaks, but IMO attract too much attention to themselves in other genres. I think that iconic Gibson creamy focused percussive sound is perhaps too distinctive in the more traditional genres that are less specifically mandolinny. Old time string band music, rags, fiddle tune jams whether Irish or Appalachian, I think an oval hole has the edge. IMO.

If bluegrass and/or jazz is the majority of ones playing the ff holes are superb. But if they are a sometime thing, I think the oval hole is more versatile and "sticks out" less often.

But you know what, in the right hands, all these things are not huge. "A tad more versatile" is a good phrase. A player can de-emphasize the aspects of his or her instrument that don't fit the moment, and emphasize what does. In the right hands an oval hole can do real well in bluegrass, though not maybe optimal, and elsewhere the ff hole in the right hands can be played extremely musically and blend well with an ensemble.

Going back to another quote, I think the ff hole is more for when one is playing mandolin, while the oval hole is more for when one is playing music.

[Resolve]

My personal journey: for a long time I gravitated to the look and tone of flat-top oval hole instruments. They sounded more "mountain" to me, and for folky music and Celtic they were just right.

As my ears and playing developed and I realized I wanted to play quite percussively, the ff hole instrument became a much better choice for me. It took me a while to appreciate the subtleties if ff hole tone on single note lines, but I just love it now, and even admit I (totally subjective) find some oval hole mandos very course sounding.

I find ff hole mandolins more versatile for the reason that they work well percussively, and although they may not be the traditional choice for Celtic, jazz, and folk, they certainly work in those genres. I love Tim O'Brien's tone on Irish tunes on an f-hole instrument.

I feel that an oval hole mandolin "works" decidedly less well for me in percussion-y music like bluegrass, although to be fair my oval hole experience is with flat-top instruments, mostly. An arch top and back may allow more percussive tone.

I wonder if others may generally agree on the idea that ff-holes may be a tad more versatile across genres?

Tone is very personal--you have to go with what lights you up, and know that may change over time.

Thanks for sharing that.

That is what I'm wondering... if the ff hole is more versatile across genres and a better choice for one who does not yet know where this new instrument will lead her.

[bigskygirl]

Just get the Eastman 305 or 315 if you decide on F style. Believe me, you will end up owning more than one at some point.

The reason I say this is BC I think you should get it and start playing. Mandolin is different than guitar as far as role in band/music, picking, and strumming. You can chop BG or play jazz or blues or like Jethro or whatever.

Any mandolin will work for you for now and the Eastman is one that will come well made, set-up, playable, and sound good. Also, if you decide you don't like it after all you will be able to sell it later without much loss.

Now, let's go get that glass of wine....

[JeffD]

So would an f hole though, so it's up to you. The thing about the oval hole is that you won't be able to get that chopping sound if you've listened to any bluegrass and you want that sound, then your choice is made for you, f hole is the way to go. F hole is the way to go if you think you might play any bluegrass at all

Well I get what you are saying, but I think you over sell the point. One can chop effectively with an oval hole. And if one is a killer player with brilliant improve, and a good oval hole, I don't think folks will miss the ff holes. (A bluegrass aficionado might speculate as to how much even better it might sound with ff holes, of course.)

But I don't think its accurate to say it can't be done. Its just, perhaps, not optimal.

If bluegrass is a sometimes thing, I don't know that the difference moves the decision. If bluegrass is a passion, well, yea, the decision is made.

[jaycat]

I have nothing to add here, but wanted to offer kudos for your duo covering Sam the Sham and the Pharaohs. "Ring Dang Doo" is my personal favorite but somehow I cannot convince others in my jam to give it a try.

[Resolve]

Just get the Eastman 305 or 315 if you decide on F style. Believe me, you will end up owning more than one at some point.

The reason I say this is BC I think you should get it and start playing. Mandolin is different than guitar as far as role in band/music, picking, and strumming. You can chop BG or play jazz or blues or like Jethro or whatever.

Any mandolin will work for you for now and the Eastman is one that will come well made, set-up, playable, and sound good. Also, if you decide you don't like it after all you will be able to sell it later without much loss.

Now, let's go get that glass of wine....

Thanks, Girl. .

And I'd love to get that glass of wine. .

[Resolve]

I have nothing to add here, but wanted to offer kudos for your duo covering Sam the Sham and the Pharaohs. "Ring Dang Doo" is my personal favorite but somehow I cannot convince others in my jam to give it a try.

LOL... yah we have way too much fun with that song.

[NursingDaBlues]

I really enjoy all of my mandolins. They each have a unique sound and, therefore, purpose. However, if I could only have one mandolin, I’d pick my FF-hole A-Style Weber Beartooth Traditional. It’s the most versatile instrument I play.

Having said that, it might be worth a road trip to Elderly Instruments in Lansing, MI to sample ovals, F’s, and different brands – new and used. Then let YOUR heart, ears, and hands be your guide.

Important note: When comparing an oval-hole with an ff-hole, stand facing a wall maybe five to six feet away and listen to the return sound.

[k0k0peli]

I have just now (in the last few minutes) played similar runs in similar positions on ff-hole and oval-hole instruments. When I play on one course and leave the others open, I notice more sympathetic resonance from open strings on the oval-hole vs the ff-hole. I conclude that the oval-hole axe sounds 'smoother' because of this more holistic effect. I hear the total instrument, not just the course(s) played at the moment.

BUT there's also picking technique -- if I pick near the bridge on either instrument, the sound has more bite because I'm projecting the higher overtones; picking further up the body promotes the lower partials for more depth and 'smoothness'.

So, the acid test: play both and see what you like.

[Eric F.]

How far are you from Madison? Get yourself to Spruce Tree Music if you can.

[Resolve]

How far are you from Madison? Get yourself to Spruce Tree Music if you can.

Yup... about 1.5 hours from Madison. Problem is... not knowing how to play a mandolin yet means I can't try out the instruments even if I do get to the store.

[Ky Slim]

I consider myself lucky to have 3 mandolins but I can only play one of them at a time. All of these remarks about the tone of oval vs. ff hole mandolins sound right to me but I wouldn't worry too much about soundholes and genre conventions, opinions or stereotypes at this point. Make sure playability is high on your priority list. Good Luck!!