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Thread: guitar nut compensation ???

  1. #1

    Default guitar nut compensation ???

    I had two guitars that exposed interesting issue:

    1) tune all strings up to pitch (E A D G B E)
    2) take any string, A for example, note at fret#2 is a little sharper than B and so all the fretted note on this string. Of course fret#12 is also sharp
    3) put a capo on fret#2, and tune the A string to B as B was sharp
    4) all the fretted notes now sound correct (as shown by the electronic tuner)
    5) all strings have similar issue and capo at fret#2 take care of the problem

    I am sure some of you may have got guitars with this issue and wondering how you go about fixing it.

    My method is to add a zero fret, sitting very close to the nut, retune the strings to pitch again and all the fretted notes are to pitch or very very close to pitch. However, it takes some trial and error to position the zero fret.

    I do not have extra fret and have to create one using a nail, filed flat on one side such that it is just a bit taller than fret#1, then slide it under the strings at between the nut and fret#1, then slide it very close to the nut. Once the proper position is determined, I superglue the "zero fret" on the fretboard. Of course I have to file the nut slot as deep as I like, as the zero fret comes in to play here. I wish I have a real fret.

  2. #2
    Registered User David Houchens's Avatar
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    Default Re: guitar nut compensation ???

    A piece of an old "A" string right against the nut would do rather than a nail just to test. What size fret wire do you need.

  3. #3

    Default Re: guitar nut compensation ???

    I don't really know the size of the frets on the guitar, I have no tool for accurate measurement.
    Took me 5 mins to file flat one side of the nail. The flat nail stays put while a string would roll and won't stay in place when tuning the strings.

  4. #4
    Registered User Ky Slim's Avatar
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    Default Re: guitar nut compensation ???

    Perhaps the original nut slots could be cut a little deeper. If the action is high coming out of the nut you might be bending the string slightly sharp as you push it down to the fret.

  5. #5
    Adrian Minarovic
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    Default Re: guitar nut compensation ???

    If all fretted notes are sharp an dafter capoing the problem goes away it's most likely the nut.
    Being sharp means the nut is either too high or too far from the first fret. Effect of high nut will diminish as you go up the neck and nut too far will cause constant sharpness up the neck (bridge saddle position may affect how it behaves up the neck a little). I once solved banjo with similar problem by making new nut that overhangs the fretboard a little (1/8" lip fitted over curved fretboard) and filed back compensation with round file for each string so it played in tune.
    If you want to know how much you need, make sure the nut height is good, tune the guitar and measure how many cents each string is sharp at first fret. That's ballpark value how many percents of the nut to first fret distance you need to remove.
    Adrian

  6. #6
    Registered User Mike Conner's Avatar
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    Default Re: guitar nut compensation ???

    I have found similar problems on many guitars over the years, especially on imports. The source of the errors is in part due to the standard way of calculating the fret positions. As stated above, you first should be sure that the nut slots are cut to the proper height, where the strings just clear the first fret when lightly pressed down onto the 3rd fret. There are several sources online to guide this process.

    The cure is to shorten the distance from the nut to the first fret. The overlapping nut or zero fret tricks can work but they can look a bit awkward. I have found that the 0.013" kerf of a razor saw is a pretty good compromise. Saw between the end of the fretboard and nut to separate the nut from the fretboard, and the nut makes a good guide to keep the saw cut square. the nut should pop of with a gentle tap.

    Clean up the nut surfaces and the new nut location with a small file. Glue the nut back on with a dot of superglue. This has greatly improved several guitars, and the modification with a little care can be nearly invisible.

    Perhaps this minor surgery seems intimidating, but to me not any more than making complicated nut modifications or rigging up a zero fret. Of course, a temporary mod to test the affect could be done before committing to the saw.

    //mike

  7. #7

    Default Re: guitar nut compensation ???

    Thanks for all the inputs. I always adjust nut and saddle action to be low for easy playing. And the issue is there.
    I found that the "zero fret" center is 2mm away from the nut, i.e. the nut is a bit too far as many of you indicated. And the zero fret does not look weird to my eyes.
    I am struggling between two ideas: make a permanent zero fret or cut a new nut location. I have tools for both so that's not an issue.
    As a matter of fact, if I cut the zero fret slot and do not really like the zero fret, I could chop of this little part of the fret board and the zero fret position is the new nut position. Please correct me if I am wrong on this.
    Personally, I like zero fret (I built an ukulele from scratch with zero fret to avoid dealing with nut slots issue).

    Last night, I remembered I could use the feeler gauges to measure the fret height, it is 0.032, and I would feel good to use 0.035 to 0.040 for the zero fret.

  8. #8

    Default Re: guitar nut compensation ???

    At present time, the "zero fret", made from a nail, is slided in place, not glued yet and the intonation is great along the fretboard.
    I can play it as such, waiting for the real fret wire.

  9. #9
    Registered User Mike Conner's Avatar
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    Default Re: guitar nut compensation ???

    kkmm,
    Wow, 2 mm is a lot more than I would have expected! You have confirmed that the new nut location (the zero fret position) gives good intonation. So it seems the guitar fret positions were cut wrong originally.

    With 2 mm to work with you would have room for your zero fret. You may want to file the barbed part of the fret tang down and glue in the fret (superglue works well). That way you minimize the risk of the pressure of the tang in the slot breaking out the end of the fretboard. Good luck!

  10. #10
    Registered User David Houchens's Avatar
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    Default Re: guitar nut compensation ???

    Almost .080. That was really off.

  11. #11

    Default Re: guitar nut compensation ???

    Or, for the seriously picky about intonation:
    Click image for larger version. 

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  12. #12

    Default Re: guitar nut compensation ???

    Wow, 2 mm is a lot more than I would have expected! You have confirmed that the new nut location (the zero fret position) gives good intonation. So it seems the guitar fret positions were cut wrong originally.

    With 2 mm to work with you would have room for your zero fret. You may want to file the barbed part of the fret tang down and glue in the fret (superglue works well). That way you minimize the risk of the pressure of the tang in the slot breaking out the end of the fretboard. Good luck!
    Yes, the nut position is indeed way off, all other frets are fine after I put in a "dirty zero fret". I have ordered real frets and will proceed as you suggest, superglue instead of cutting a fret slot, with superglue, I have the flexibility to micro adjust the position to get best intonation while a fret slot is pretty much fixed.

    What I have done is fully reversible except the nut slots have been filed all the way down to the fretboard level.

    The reviews of this instrument from different buyers show some have this issue and they simply return it. I like it because of the look and the solid build. The fix is not that complicated anyway (and I love the zero fret).

  13. #13
    Registered User Mike Conner's Avatar
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    Default Re: guitar nut compensation ???

    I actually was suggesting that you cut a slot, and file off the barbs of the fret tang, then superglue into the slot. I can see where not cutting a slot would give you the most flexibility with the zero fret location. Good Luck!

  14. #14

    Default Re: guitar nut compensation ???

    I actually was suggesting that you cut a slot, and file off the barbs of the fret tang, then superglue into the slot.
    This is really how to install a fret. The trouble is the neck has side bindings, cutting fret slot will also cut the white binding and I try to avoid destroying the look. The frets have been ordered (one full set), I could use the remaining frets to build a guitar neck in the future (done that once).

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