Incoming! New digital mixer

[TonyP]

LOL, well obviously there is nothing new or original under the sun Charles. I had no idea something like Concert Window was going on. But it seems way more than just some kind thing people in our immediate audience could log onto just to get an audio feed. The range thing might work just right, keeping it from going further than just your audience. But I would guess it would be the amount of traffic that would be the limiting factor.

What an interesting can 'o worms checking out Concert Window opened. What a way to fight the greedy local venues, just put a show on CW and get proceeds from "ticket" sales. Better sound, you can see the band, cheaper booze prices and don't have to worry about paying for parking or getting a DUI on the way home. So in person gigs could go away?

[Toni Schula]

Live sound seems like such a losing battle when outside with bunch of folks drinking beer and the people competing (and winning) the volume competition.

Wouldn,t it be great to have some wireless control to tame the audience noise?

[Charlieshafer]

LOL, well obviously there is nothing new or original under the sun Charles. I had no idea something like Concert Window was going on. But it seems way more than just some kind thing people in our immediate audience could log onto just to get an audio feed. The range thing might work just right, keeping it from going further than just your audience. But I would guess it would be the amount of traffic that would be the limiting factor.

What an interesting can 'o worms checking out Concert Window opened. What a way to fight the greedy local venues, just put a show on CW and get proceeds from "ticket" sales. Better sound, you can see the band, cheaper booze prices and don't have to worry about paying for parking or getting a DUI on the way home. So in person gigs could go away?

Concert window is interesting, but we certainly don't want them taking business from non-profit venues like ours! The only downside of is that you're at the mercy of the sound that the artists set up. Some are downright horrible, some pretty good. Some artists, like Maeve Gilchrist (harp player) use them for open-format workshops, where she'll have 20 or 30 harpists from around the world asking questions, and she'll give answers and demonstrate. She'll play a piece, then field questions or comments on anything artistic or technical. That's a very cool use of it. She'll just set up in her living room, turn the camera on, and have at it.

It's also a neat way for a band to audition some new tunes and get immediate feedback. The best use for this, as far as I can tell, is that sort of interactive thing, and not so much just a concert, unless it's someone who simply never travels to your area.

[TonyP]

Concert window is interesting, but we certainly don't want them taking business from non-profit venues like ours! The only downside of is that you're at the mercy of the sound that the artists set up. Some are downright horrible, some pretty good. Some artists, like Maeve Gilchrist (harp player) use them for open-format workshops, where she'll have 20 or 30 harpists from around the world asking questions, and she'll give answers and demonstrate. She'll play a piece, then field questions or comments on anything artistic or technical. That's a very cool use of it. She'll just set up in her living room, turn the camera on, and have at it.

It's also a neat way for a band to audition some new tunes and get immediate feedback. The best use for this, as far as I can tell, is that sort of interactive thing, and not so much just a concert, unless it's someone who simply never travels to your area.

I'm sorry to Almeria for the seeming hijack but this whole digital world is amazing. The Cafe has been an an entry into so much that I would never found or come into contact with. And things are changing quicker and quicker.

I thought I was so far into the hi tech when I got the Driverack 260 which was one rack space unit that replaced a whole rack of gear. And now these digital mixers are not only a 1/4 the size of the mixer it replaces plus it has almost as much function as that hi tech box I was so enamoured of for 1/4 the cost. Now it's all about knowing enough to try and understand enough to not buy another piece of equipment that's not what I thought it was or that's going to get left in the dustbin and not supported in the mad rush forward of newer smaller better cheaper.

And these things seem to be all this potential that just needs to be implemented. I wish we had some kind of non profit venue that we locals could be part of. But around here it's the stage before you pay to play a bar like it is in Los Angeles. So being able afford the equipment much less the instruments is pretty much a losing proposition. You never seem to be able to predict how the tech is going to change things for the good or bad.

[almeriastrings]

And these things seem to be all this potential that just needs to be implemented. I wish we had some kind of non profit venue that we locals could be part of.

All it takes is someone to start one.... and once you do, all kinds of things can happen. It gains its own momentum. We live in place where bluegrass and country/folk music is rare as hens teeth, it is all pop music via 'tribute' acts, traditional Spanish music, and karaoke.... Spanish traditional music is great, of course... but the karaoke! The karaoke! Anyway, there was no venue or club for the stuff we play so we started one. It has been going 5 years now. We were not even sure there was an audience out there, but we did not just rely on performances, we also offered workshops, lessons, demonstrations, advice and support - helping people to make music. I see Charlie is involved in similar things. We gradually built up a "following" and more people became involved as "regulars". Some of these people knew very little about traditional music and did not even recognise a mandolin or dulcimer when they first saw them... but kind of liked what they heard... and became interested. We have seen some of those people go from total beginner level to being able to put on a solo performance to a good standard! That is very rewarding for all concerned. We also have a really great regular audience, very supportive and welcoming. We now have people of all backgrounds and nationalities involved....UK, US, Spain, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, and we have had guests from as far afield as Australia (Thanks, Nick!), but it all started from absolutely nothing, in an area where nothing like it had ever happened before. It is not huge in numbers, but it works, and we get to take part in quite large multi-cultural events too, and on radio shows, which gives a lot more exposure. We try to make it an enjoyable, participatory learning experience, not just a "show". We will never be "commercial", but then, we don't want to be. I would be pretty unhappy at trying to be "commercial" these days, I think.... you have to get a bit creative, I believe, and use technology where it suits to make things happen in a way that's consistent with what you want to do. For all the problems the "digital revolution" has caused (piracy, etc.) it has also opened up new ways of doing things, such as "Concert Window"... and Youtube... and back to mixers, you can now do an amazing amount with these new devices which are literally the size of a shoe-box, yet pack the functionality of something that just a few years ago would fill a small truck.

I think the replacement Ui12 should arrive today. I'll report back once I've given it a try. We're still waiting for the new firmware. There are a few bugs with regard to gain staging... and FX sends on groups. I know they are being worked on. A new version of the user manual has also appeared (V2.6) and a the 'official' tuition videos are now online, and a close look shows they already have a more recent firmware than the one on public release.

[TonyP]

+1 on what you said.

Where we live now is a total tourist economy. But like you mentioned there are a LOT of people who will show up for good acoustic music. And what I noticed is now it's through the phone. The other nite we were told there is usually around 15 to 20 people. Well by the time we got rolling into the middle of the first set there was well over 100 and this is just a little outside cafe with a small and goofy seating area. With our four piece jammed into an area that would be ok for a duo. It was all people calling and texting their friends. And on a Monday night. So yeah, it's all about finding the right venue and working it enough to keep interest but not enough to kill it. And having good sound is essential.

I look forward to seeing how the teething problems get ironed out and how responsive the co's are to us little guys in the trenches.

[Toni Schula]

I just played around with the ui demo version at the soundcraft web page. I am really impressed how usable this is even on a small smartphone screen. Not that I don't prefer the comfort of a larger tablet or computer screen. But the smartphone version is absolutely useable. The phone definitely can be a backup should the tablet be broken. This eases my concern about the missing local controls.

The only missing thing on my wishlist is multitrack recording...

[TonyP]

The only missing thing on my wishlist is multitrack recording...

+1 with two big thumbs up!

[foldedpath]

Quote Originally Posted by Bauzl
The only missing thing on my wishlist is multitrack recording...

+1 with two big thumbs up!

Careful what you wish for.

Multitrack recording on these newfangled digital mixers can be a blessing or a curse, depending on what your needs are. If you really, seriously, intend to do a polished multitrack mixdown of a show for promotional reasons like YouTube audio or a live CD, it can be a blessing. These digital mixers -- especially the ones that have no-hassle internal multitrack recording -- are amazing for that.

If you use it to record every gig and your band mates expect polished mixdowns from all those separate files on every single gig, good or bad.... "hey, can you raise the sound of my bass?... that's something else entirely.

Mixdown from multitrack, and final mastering for the intended use, is a ton of work. Seriously, a ton of work after a performance. If your band mates just want a recording of the gig, you'd be better off with a straight 2-track mains capture of the mixer, with no mixdown. If you really do need a full pre-fader, pre-EQ, and pre-FX multitrack capture, then go for it. Just realize what's involved, once you have all those separate .WAV files on your computer.

[almeriastrings]

+ 1 on that.

It really is a lot of work. We have it on our M20D, and have used it a few times, but I would not use it routinely to record all live shows, because of the editing time involved. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a 2-track recording for general archive or reference purposes. That is, after all, how virtually all live shows were recorded (including for broadcast and CD release) until fairly recently. Just because it is there does not mean it has to be used for everything...

It is also the case that if you are that serious about getting pristine, no-compromise multi-track recordings for some major project, there are better ways to do it than from a relatively low cost live sound mixer.

The new Ui12 turned up on Tuesday and has been on test since. No problems at all with this one. Very quiet preamps, everything working fine. It does seem that some defective units have got out there, however, with these causing some rather negative reviews!

I have been in contact with various people involved and these are not normal, and not what you should expect. If you do get one with too much preamp noise, I would suggest returning it. It has a fault. It has not been disclosed what the problem actually is/was, but there was definitely something wrong with some of the early ones off the production line. Personally, I suspect an internal power regulation issue + possibly a faulty batch of chips. The latest ones seem free of such issues. Mine certainly sounds very nice indeed and has no such problems. Excellent little mixer, and the user interface is very good indeed (much nicer, IMHO, than that on the Behringer X-series).

[TonyP]

Careful what you wish for.

Multitrack recording on these newfangled digital mixers can be a blessing or a curse, depending on what your needs are. If you really, seriously, intend to do a polished multitrack mixdown of a show for promotional reasons like YouTube audio or a live CD, it can be a blessing. These digital mixers -- especially the ones that have no-hassle internal multitrack recording -- are amazing for that.

If you use it to record every gig and your band mates expect polished mixdowns from all those separate files on every single gig, good or bad.... "hey, can you raise the sound of my bass?... that's something else entirely.

Mixdown from multitrack, and final mastering for the intended use, is a ton of work. Seriously, a ton of work after a performance. If your band mates just want a recording of the gig, you'd be better off with a straight 2-track mains capture of the mixer, with no mixdown. If you really do need a full pre-fader, pre-EQ, and pre-FX multitrack capture, then go for it. Just realize what's involved, once you have all those separate .WAV files on your computer.

Of course you guys are totally correct. Mix down and editing in the best conditions is a HUGE time suck. Trying polish up live tracks makes me cringe. But it would be nice to be able to record a practice. Funny you should mention bass FP because we've been using my mini system and been running the bass thru her amp instead of the mains, so the bass would not be in the mix at all.

Good info on the "new" Ui. So how to get the store to make sure it's one of the updated Ui's? There should be some kind of batch# or serials or something you can have them check before you buy. This is the very reason I don't buy early. It's hard enough learning a new piece of gear like this, much less dealing with problems. Keep us posted please.

[Toni Schula]

Of course you guys are totally correct. Mix down and editing in the best conditions is a HUGE time suck. Trying polish up live tracks makes me cringe. But it would be nice to be able to record a practice.

Yeah, I have gone this path as well. It took me 200+ hours to edit and mix a gig we recorded with the venue's multitrack recorder. Now that I have read a great book about mixing (Masterclass Sound Design by Burhard Heise, written in German) I am sure I could do it in only 100+ hours
Still having multitrack recording would make the UI more versatile. Maybe also the virtual sound check might also be helpful. I have absolutely no experience with that.

[TonyP]

Yup, virtual sound check sounds like a good idea, and like you have never tried it. If nothing else it sounds like a good starting point.

[almeriastrings]

Thought I would just bring you an update on this, after a few gigs with it.

Connectivity

No problems at all. Working fine on iPads and Android (Galaxy) tabs, also tested out the ethernet and very straightforward there too. It is nice to have the iPad as main mix, and a Galaxy showing a separate 'page' at the same time! Also nice to have more than one device that works (just in case). Some people have reported some connectivity issues, but ours has been 100% solid.

User interface

It really is very easy and straightforward compared to some digital desks. Actually, the nicest GUI on a live mixer I have seen so far. Everything is very clear, and if you know analog desks (and outboard) it makes sense very quickly. I rarely had to consult the manual.

Effects

The FX are really outstanding for a mixer in this price range. The reverbs in particular are highly customizable (easy, too), and sound great. Really good. I would say better than on the A&H Zed's. The compressor too is excellent, and the EQ is very flexible and precise. Just nice to use, and it all sounds great. Not as complex or sophisticated as on some desks (including our M20D), but absolutely adequate for typical small venues (no multiband compression, or dynamic EQ, for example - but these are specialist tools that 99% of the time you don't need anyway in small venues). All the basics (and them some) are there, and they are easy to use and work really well.

Mic preamps

These are not the very quietest mic pres on the planet, admittedly. With very low input level sources, they can struggle. There is (allegedly) an firmware update coming soon that is said to make a difference here. That said, I just used high output mics (Rode M2's, Shure SM94's) and found them more than quiet enough. No intrusive hiss, and very warm and 'present' sounding. I would not give them 5 stars, but in a live setting, they are certainly adequate. I guess you have to look at this in the context of the price. You do get 8 of them on the Ui12 and 12 of them on the Ui16. I'm happy to use them for any kind of live show (but won't be selling my Audient and UA stuff in the studio, yet!).

Shows and Snapshots

This is where having an easy to use digital desk wins through. In one section of our own performance my wife does a solo spot with fingerstyle, rather than flatpicked, guitar. She uses her Martin OM42 Marquis via a Fishman Aura box DI'd to the console. Changing from flatpick (when we're playing as a due) to fingerstyle needs some fairly drastic level changes, and I also like to add a touch of compression for fingerstyle guitar. On an analog system this can get tricky, but with a digital desk, you just set it up in advance, save the two 'options' (flatpick vs. fingerstyle) as two different snapshots, then simply switch between them with a couple of taps on the iPad. The different levels, any EQ changes, and compression settings all "move across" instantly.... and when the solo spot is finished, just recall the "duo" setting, and absolutely everything is back to where it was, perfectly. This is a huge time saver and greatly reduces the changes of mistakes (a knob or button wrong, etc.)

Two 'spare' inputs

In addition to the 8 mic/line XLR/jacks there are two RCA inputs. These tend to be ignored, but they are useful. I tested them with various wireless mics and they worked very well there. Each channel can be dealt with independently, they are not a fixed 'stereo' format. Following on from Don's earlier thread on dulcimers, I also decided to try the same idea... I ran a pair of Behringer ADA121 piezo preamps into the RCA's using mono jack-RCA cables, and set one for 'passive' transducers and the other with the 'pad' engaged for active transducers. We then used those for guest performers to DI guitars into. It gained two extra channels leaving the full 8 'main' inputs untouched. You can apply the same EQ, reverb, compression (etc) presets and other settings to the RCA's as you can to the XLR/Jack inputs, so this is really very useful.

So far, so good.... have some larger gigs (outdoors) coming up soon, and I will give it a more extensive try-out then.

[TonyP]

Thanks so much for the detailed review. The snapshots, once understood would be so handy. I keep seeing where there are gig with other bands and this would very handy for such.

[almeriastrings]

It is very useful. You only realize how useful once you start using it. I've been "100% digital" for a while now, and would not want to go back. In fact, all my analog mixers went to Ebay.....

Right now I have the M20D and the Ui12, which covers me for medium to small shows just fine. For anything larger I can borrow a 32 channel Soundcraft Si 3 Expression or an A&H Qu32.

With the little Ui12, it is still kind of hard to get your head around the fact that although not much bigger than a shoe box, it is like having a rack of 12X compressors, 12X graphic EQ's, 12X Parametric EQ's, 12X noise gates, good reverbs, plus an anti-feedback system. Another benefit of digital mixers that might not be instantly obvious, is that you really do not need much in the way of "fancy" acoustic instrument preamps. Just something with a suitably high input impedance to act as a basic buffer/DI. The range of EQ's you have available on these desks (with real-time analysis!) is so good that all of the 'tweaking' you would previously have had to do on a 'fancy' pedal are already there - built in. As long as you have a good high impedance input with good headroom, that is pretty much all you need. Everything else is taken care of within the console. Parametric EQ, phase reverse, anti-feedback, etc. When you consider a sophisticated acoustic preamp/DI can in itself run to $250-500, this is really something, as you can have any many of them as you have channels available in a digital desk. You just need a very simple buffer in front - something like the Radial Stagebug SB-4 that has a 5M input impedance, or a (in the EU) the little Orchid Micro-DI boxes (1M input impedance) which are only 25GBP each... and sound superb.

[TonyP]

Ok, I'm new to using DI's, and the folks in this band have a range of stuff while I'm still using a mic for my mandolin. The guitar player uses a PU through a DI, the dobro uses a mini mic, and the bass player uses some kind of PU thru her bass amp. But when we use the bigger speakers I would like to do away with the bass amp. So the bass is the only one that's an unknown.

I'm sold on this, and am seriously contemplating the Ui12. I would probably order from Sweetwater, BUT my main concern is how do I make sure the unit they have in stock is the latest updated version and not one that needs to be sent back to have the hardware updated.

[almeriastrings]

As far as I am aware, only a small number of very early ones with a serial number beginning 5020 had any possibility of a hardware problem affecting the power regulation. Those beginning 5030 and above had that fixed. The firmware is easy to update yourself as new versions are released.

[TonyP]

I took Bauzl's cue and went to the Soundcraft site and played with the demo of the control and I have to say what a good idea! I'm a little confused partly because I'm not used to digital boards, but I wonder if what I saw was actually for the ui16?

It also begs the question what do you use for powering the two mini di's you mentioned when they say they run off phantom when you have them going into the RCA's? Also are they counting the MP3 player as 2 ch.? I'm missing something....you've got the 4 xlr, 4 combo's, the two RCA...isn't that just 10 ch?

Is there a page to see what the AFS is doing or the control?

[almeriastrings]

The control (and demo) software is the same for the Ui16 and the Ui12.

If using the two RCA's, I use self powered (battery operated) preamps/DI's - either the Behringer AD121's (which despite costing only $30 a piece are really pretty decent) or a Headway EDB-2 and a Studiospares Preamp/Di (european availability only). If going into one of the XLR's, I can also use the mini-DI's that require +48v.

Yes, in the total channel count the MP3 player is included. Personally, I don't need or use that - but it is there.

For 'Live' sound the UI12 has 10 'useful' channels, and the Ui16 has 14 (12 mic/line XLR's + 2 RCA Line).

Unfortunately, you cannot test the AFS on the demo as you need an active, fully 'live' system for that to work. It does work very well, however.

[Charlieshafer]

Hey Almeria, would you think that using a separate mic pre bank, and then not having to stress the Soundcrafts mic pres would keep things quieter?

[almeriastrings]

You could... but honestly, in the kind of live context where these desks are likely to be used I doubt you'd need to. If you wanted whisper-quiet, very high gain pres, I'd frankly be looking at a much higher end unit than one of these in the first place. The M20D is very good indeed in that respect, as are some of the other 2-3K options. An easier solution is just to use reasonably high output mics in the first place, either something that has similar output voltages to the Beta dynamics, or just about any condenser. If you keep the input gain (trim) to around +29db or less, with the channels and masters around unity, it is fine. If you are trying to use an SM7b (for example) or some other really, really low output mic where you are having to crank the input gain to +40db or more, then yes, it would be a definite issue. I tried an SM7b on there, and it was not good, but then, they are a very demanding mic in terms of preamps and seem happiest with something that can deliver +50db or more with ultra low noise levels (I normally run those through an Audient ASP880, which is perfect). A regular Beta 57/58 is fine, as are AKG D5's and EV967's, and every condenser I have tried so far has also been absolutely fine (most needing around +25db on the input side to produce good levels on the channels).

[oldwave]

If you would want to run a low level mic like that you could us a cloud lifter , works well with ribbon miss and low output dynamics

[TonyP]

Sorry I wasn't clear I guess. There was mention about turning on the AFS and I was looking for that page.....guess I should look through the manual instead of asking silly questions.

[almeriastrings]

The AFS in the demos is not operative. It only works on the hardware unit. You can turn it on, but you won't see any effect.

Re: Cloudlifter, just gave mine a try to see what happened. Major hum and hiss.... not sure why just yet, I need to try a few things such as separate phantom power and look at the grounding. The Cloudlifer itself is fine, as I used it with a ribbon mic and field recorder just a couple of weeks ago. Investigating further.