Neck Relief

[OldSausage]

I want to try to get a feeling for what the consensus is on this issue. Have a close look at the diagrams:



It's not to scale. The little triangle represents the bridge. I haven't drawn all the frets, because how tedious. No. 2 is somewhat exaggerated to make the point.

When I play a mandolin that feels easy to play to me (regardless of how it sounds), what I nearly always find is that the setup is like in diagram 1.

However, much more typically, the setup of mandolins I encounter in the wild is like diagram 2, with the fretboard bending upwards at the end towards the nut, and usually with the nut slots filed too deep to allow the neck to be adjusted back flat with the truss rod without some strings (usually the A or E strings), starting to ring against the first fret.

So my question is, players, which do you prefer? Are you even aware that this is going on with your mandolin? And builders and set-up folks, which would you recommend?

My own experience is that both setups work fine for a while, but if I play a mandolin with setup number 2 for an extended period, my left hand fingers will much more rapidly tire than with setup number 1. But that's just me, I'd really like to know what everyone else thinks.

[Don Grieser]

Necks need a lot less relief than everyone seems to think. The best setup I've ever experienced is on the current Heiden A5 I have. The relief is extremely subtle if there is any at all. The fretwork is perfect which is the key for minimum relief. Plays easier than any mandolin I've ever owned or played.

So I vote for 1.

[catmandu2]

I love a "1" - especially one that doesn't budge over the years. Many of my guitars (nylon string) had no adj/truss of course, and I loved it when they stayed exactly the "same" over the years.

I've had plenty of old "2s" in my life, too - it works particularly well for slide

[Tom Wright]

No. 1 for me, also. The bowing tends to make for a choking tone in the upper frets (less clearance), and exacerbates intonation challenges in the low frets. Weber sets up straight, no bow.

[sunburst]

...builders and set-up folks, which would you recommend?

Normally, I recommend very slight relief in the neck (nothing like picture 2, but I realize it is exaggerated). Mandolins, with their short scale length and high string tension, don't need much relief, but some (most?) people like and do better with a little.
Now, in your case, with a strong expressed preference for no relief, that is the correct set up, and I wouldn't recommend against it. This is the reason I like adjustable necks. The same mandolin can be set up for player 1 or for player 2, one preferring no relief and one preferring a little relief. It is not an either/or situation like it is with nonadjustable necks.

[Relio]

No relief for me. Last mandolin I played was set up by dudenbostel and it had no relief as well.

[Ivan Kelsall]

David - When i bought my Weber "Fern",i e-mailed Weber to ask about neck relief. Bruce Weber told me that they send them out from the shop with 'flat' fingerboards, as the scale length is so short that the neck doesn't really require any relief as such. That doesn't mean to say that a tiny amount of relief would be detrimental. My Lebeda & Ellis mandolins all have flat f/boards as well,
Ivan

[Carl Robin]

#1 for sure. The "typical" #2 is hard to play. Avoid that instrument.

[OldSausage]

I'm surprised how unanimous it's been so far. That leaves the question of why most mandolins seem to proudly feature setup No.2. I was hoping that more people would prefer No.2 so I'd find out what they like about it - because you see it so much I feel like I must be missing something.

I think there are a few possible explanations:

1. Many setup people work primarily on guitar, and transfer ideas from that to the mandolin.

2. Setup no.2 makes it easier to fret the string at the first fret, and for some this somehow compensates for how much harder it is on frets 3 and 4.

3. If the frets are not dead level, you can get away with it more easily if there's a bit more relief? I'm not even sure if that is true, it doesn't sound likely.

Here's what I think is the most likely answer:

4. Once your fretboard has curled up a little, and you (or someone) have filed down the nut slots to compensate (instead of adjusting the truss rod), you are simply stuck with that setup unless you make a new nut. When people take a mandolin in for a refret, the refret person notes that you seem to like your neck with a bit of relief, and as you haven't paid for a new nut, just makes it work the way you had it, so the problem never gets fixed. So in other words, not really anyone's fault, just a lack of awareness.

[Bill Baldridge]

Normally, I recommend very slight relief in the neck (nothing like picture 2, but I realize it is exaggerated). Mandolins, with their short scale length and high string tension, don't need much relief, but some (most?) people like and do better with a little.
Now, in your case, with a strong expressed preference for no relief, that is the correct set up, and I wouldn't recommend against it. This is the reason I like adjustable necks. The same mandolin can be set up for player 1 or for player 2, one preferring no relief and one preferring a little relief. It is not an either/or situation like it is with nonadjustable necks.

With every mandolin I have obtained with an adjustable neck, I have immediately worked to get the action down by adjusting the fretboard flat, or as flat as possible. Obviously, I have a strong preference for number 1. My question is not a challenge nor does it contain sarcasm, but I am wondering what I am missing. In what way(s) do some people like higher action and do better with some neck relief? Thanks, in advance.

[Joey Anchors]

I tend to like a flat as possible neck set up.

[pops1]

I like a flat neck, but i file in just a little relief under the G string so i can get my action as low as possible. Flat under the rest tho.

[Astro]

#1 for me too. And I would guess your explantation 3 is the most common reason for #2. I bet its way more time consuming and tedious to perfectly dress all those frets on a flat board. Way easier to just get them close, add some relief to prevent buzz, and then claim that is what you need for good volume and tone playing Bluegrass. Give me the lowest action possible without buzz or choking the tone (when all upper frets touch lightly and simultaneously) and then let me worry about learning how to pull the tone out.

[TEvans]

I do most of the day to day setup on my instruments and on all of them, I strongly prefer #1.

My main reason for having my mandolin setup this way, aside from it being easier to play, is that it prevents me from overplaying. Often with an F-hole instrument, you're playing is much quieter up where you are, but much louder out in front of you.

When you are in a jam, and can't hear yourself that much, you overplay to be louder. But you're usually already plenty loud. So having a flat fingerboard will cause some unpleasant buzzing if I get to hitting the strings too hard. (This doesn't lend itself to solid technique and proper playing). Then you just have to trust your hand to play all the right things. hah!

[jclover]

I just purchased a Weber Absaroka that has setup #2. Very disappointing, as it was advertised with a recent setup by a luthier I had heard of, so I expected better. The mandolin buzzes on the first fret of the G and A course, even when lightly picked. The nut is cut too low, so will require a new one. I considered sending it back, but it feels too good, and sounds great when it is not buzzing. It will soon have setup #1.

[kenny boy]

#1 YOU been reading my mail or my mandolins . have two like #1 an 1 like #2. you hit it on the head

[Bill Baldridge]

While I am waiting for John to read my question, my own attempt to give one answer is that when tolerances are reduced, maintenance is increased. I have in mind changes due to weather and weather, for example. When the action is lowered as far as possible without inducing buzzing, the mandolin has to be frequently tweaked. For some, they have no interest, or no ability to that.

[sunburst]

A few things:

Nut height is independent of neck relief. Proper nut height is determined by fret height and it doesn't change if the neck is adjusted for more or less relief, so a neck with a slight bow can be straightened to as near straight as possible, to the preference of the player, with no problem, if the nut height is correctly set. (The action will most likely have to be raised though.)

Perhaps there are some hacks who try to cover for poor fret work by adding excess relief to the neck, but I doubt that that is the case very often among good set up people, and I can assure you that it is not the case with me, as it seems to me to have been implied here(!).

Action height and fingerboard relief are not the same thing. Some (many?) people seem to think that they can lower the action by straightening the neck. The action does get lower when the neck is straightened, but that is not the proper adjustment for action height. Action height is adjusted at the bridge.

The reason for fingerboard relief is the behavior of strings when plucked. If the action is to be set as low as practical, some relief in the area of the first few frets will relieve buzzing. There is plenty of published information on strings and how they move when plucked, there are YouTube videos showing strings in slow motion, in short, we know what strings do, and they do the same thing on guitars and on mandolins.
A mandolin with a correctly adjust neck with slight relief, and with the nut height set correctly will be easy to play at all frets; first, third, 12th... all of them. The action can be set lower before buzzing becomes a problem.
So with those reasons for a slight amount of relief in the fingerboard, what reasons are there for a straight 'board?
Apparently, the preference of many players.

Here's a request.
Would some of you who express a preference for a "dead straight" fingerboard check them and report back? Here's how.
Press a string down between the nut and the first fret so that the string is pressed down against the fret. Now, press the same string down to the 12th fret. Does the string contact every fret in between with equal pressure? If it does, you have a straight neck. If there is slight clearance, you have a little bit of relief. If the string must be forced, even very slightly, over any high frets, you have a back bow (or uneven frets, or both). I'd be curious to see how many "perfectly straight" necks actually are perfectly straight because I'm not sure I've ever found one that came into the shop with a perfectly straight neck. What usually shows up is some slight unevenness; a slight S-curve, a hump somewhere, a dip somewhere... Wood moves, even wood containing carbon fiber rods, metal rods, etc.. It is very difficult to maintain a neck in a perfectly straight condition.

[Astro]

Well now Bill B, there's another good point there.

Sunburst too. But I'm not sure I (or anyone) meant a perfectly flat neck since that would mean higher action at the bridge end would be needed to prevent buzz. I would think a trace amount of relief in the middle would give lowest possible action w/o buzz over the greatest amount of fretboard.

And I'm not sure where you picked up a personal reference but I certainly didnt intend any. I wasnt talking about custom set ups by experts. Those are the minority. Think of the thousands going through discount box stores and guitar stores.

I know you have way more knowledge about all of this than me.

[jshane]

.....

4. Once your fretboard has curled up a little, and you (or someone) have filed down the nut slots to compensate (instead of adjusting the truss rod), you are simply stuck with that setup unless you make a new nut. When people take a mandolin in for a refret, the refret person notes that you seem to like your neck with a bit of relief, and as you haven't paid for a new nut, just makes it work the way you had it, so the problem never gets fixed. So in other words, not really anyone's fault, just a lack of awareness.

Bingo! I never really thought about it before, but this is a perfect explanation.

(Oh yeah, my vote is for #1 also)

[OldSausage]

Nut height is independent of neck relief. Proper nut height is determined by fret height and it doesn't change if the neck is adjusted for more or less relief, so a neck with a slight bow can be straightened to as near straight as possible, to the preference of the player, with no problem, if the nut height is correctly set. (The action will most likely have to be raised though.)

I liked everything else you said, but I'm not sure about this one - here's why:



Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like when the neck has this upcurve in it you can get the nut lower, and still be "correct" for this amount of bend in the neck, (i.e. there is still the same amount of clearance over the first fret) but when you straighten it out, those strings are going to ground against the first fret, so you need a new nut. And so you can't fix that problem by raising the action at the bridge.

[Phil Goodson]

David,
My experience has always been the same as yours. That's why I always adjust the truss rod to make the FB flat immediately before taking it for a setup or refret. Don't want to mislead the luthier.

[Bob Clark]

Here's a request.
Would some of you who express a preference for a "dead straight" fingerboard check them and report back? Here's how.
Press a string down between the nut and the first fret so that the string is pressed down against the fret. Now, press the same string down to the 12th fret. Does the string contact every fret in between with equal pressure? If it does, you have a straight neck. If there is slight clearance, you have a little bit of relief. If the string must be forced, even very slightly, over any high frets, you have a back bow (or uneven frets, or both). I'd be curious to see how many "perfectly straight" necks actually are perfectly straight because I'm not sure I've ever found one that came into the shop with a perfectly straight neck. What usually shows up is some slight unevenness; a slight S-curve, a hump somewhere, a dip somewhere... Wood moves, even wood containing carbon fiber rods, metal rods, etc.. It is very difficult to maintain a neck in a perfectly straight condition.

When tested in this manner, each of my mandolins has a very slight amount of relief. Two of these are Webers (a mandolin and an OM), each of which was bought new and came with this very slight relief. I am not sure I have ever played a mandolin which had absolutely no relief. I am quite comfortable with the very slight relief my mandolins have and wouldn't think of flattening them further. This works for me but ymmv.

[sunburst]

...it seems like when the neck has this upcurve in it you can get the nut lower, and still be "correct"...

Nope. You can get the nut lower, but it is not correct if you do. Correct string height at the nut is the height of the frets (like a zero fret), or very slightly higher according to the preferences of some layers (not going there, I think it should be level with the frets, but "the customer is always right"). I Suppose one could introduce excess bow and get away with lowering the strings in the nut, but that is not correct nut height, and neck bow and action adjustments can only be made correctly when the string height at the nut is correct, so the scenario of introducing excess bow, lowering the strings in the nut, straightening the neck, then raising action to compensate for the too-low nut height is a series of errors. It is the errors that cause problems, not the preference for a straight or relieved fingerboard.

[OldSausage]

Nope. You can get the nut lower, but it is not correct if you do. Correct string height at the nut is the height of the frets (like a zero fret), or very slightly higher according to the preferences of some layers (not going there, I think it should be level with the frets, but "the customer is always right"). I Suppose one could introduce excess bow and get away with lowering the strings in the nut, but that is not correct nut height, and neck bow and action adjustments can only be made correctly when the string height at the nut is correct, so the scenario of introducing excess bow, lowering the strings in the nut, straightening the neck, then raising action to compensate for the too-low nut height is a series of errors. It is the errors that cause problems, not the preference for a straight or relieved fingerboard.

Okay, I see what you are saying, that makes sense.