Do I need a bowlback?

[Tezzerh]

I love my Eastman 305, but it isn't quite giving me the sound I want when I play certain tunes which need lots of tremolo. Songs like Isle Of Capri and Return To Sorrento. Very Italian, obviously, so I reckon they cry out for a traditional Italian mandolin, i.e. a bowlback, like the one my late Dad had many decades ago. (I wonder whatever happened to that mandolin?) So do I need a bowlback, or is it just MAS biting hard? I've already gone through a crazy stage of wanting a banjo mandolin - sorry to use the B word! And an octave mandolin would be rather nice. The Weber of my dreams is haunting me, too. Do I keep saving for that or go for a much more affordable bowlback now in order to get the sound I want? Will it give me the sound I want for those Neapolitan melodies?

[Dan Co1e]

Try playing a mandolin with an oval sound hole.

[T.D.Nydn]

First,thanks for not mentioning the B word,next,it might be partly MAS,which I don't see as a fatal disease,just got to learn how to live with it.the bowlback probably won't give you that big a difference in sound,but it makes the playing experience authentic every time you pick it up.as far as bowlbacks are concerned,I'm in love with those Martin style 5's,who wouldn't want one of those?

[JeffD]

I love the sound of a good bowl back. And the experience of playing one also, is magical.

A good bowl back played well has a distinct sound IMO not easily achieved in other ways. Whether it is the iconic sound you are searching for is a separate question.

There are many many bowlback videos to check out.


You will always be fighting MAS. You will always, no matter what you already own, have one or more that you really really want, and one or more that you kind of want, and a crisis of priorities when the second ones become available before the first.

[DavidKOS]

I love the sound of a good bowl back. And the experience of playing one also, is magical.

A good bowl back played well has a distinct sound IMO not easily achieved in other ways. Whether it is the iconic sound you are searching for is a separate question.

Do you need a bowlback for Italian music? No but it sure makes it better.

Sarcastically my first response is "Of course you need a bowlback. Everyone should have at least one REAL mandolin."

I do see that is a bit harsh, but I do love bowlbacks and I think they sound best for Italian music, although I've heard fine performances on archtop mandolins.

When you do get a bowlback, also get some thinner, stiff, pointy picks too

[brunello97]

Do you need a bowlback for Italian music? No but it sure makes it better.

Sarcastically my first response is "Of course you need a bowlback. Everyone should have at least one REAL mandolin."

I do see that is a bit harsh, but I do love bowlbacks and I think they sound best for Italian music, although I've heard fine performances on archtop mandolins.

When you do get a bowlback, also get some thinner, stiff, pointy picks too

Check out Tony Flores's recordings for great sounding work of the Italian mandolin classics played on an import A model. Also Gus Garelick from the Hot Frittatas (on a Gibson A50). Matteo Casserino also played a Gibson. I'm still chasing their tone and tremolo.

Good quality US made bowlbacks are some of the best $/quality values still available. Lots of dreck out there as well. If you are looking for an "Italian" sound--seek out a Vega bowlback. They were about the lightest built of the US makers and have some of that 'shimmering sound' that one gets from nice Italian mandolins.

Jeff is right. Playing a bowlback is a delightful experience in its own right.

The either / or question is completely boring to me. If you love the mandolin you should have a bowlback. And an archtop. And a canted top. And a solid body electric

Mick

[Petrus]

I've got an S.S. Stewart which is enjoyable but more of a novelty. I've gone through several vintage bb's and this has been the only one that stays in tune. The main question with a bb is if you want to go vintage or new. There are several new makers (Eastman being one of them, iirc) but I don't know which makers are the best.

If you go really vintage we're talking friction pegs, which can be a major pain as well.

[k0k0peli]

Grandpa Harry played Neapolitan tunes on his circa-WWI Guckert Duplex banjo-mandolin (now mine). Uncle Luc played a slightly newer deep bowlback (now warped), probably to counter Grandpa's excesses. (They were the Beneto side of the family; the Carter side played guitars and fiddles.) That duplex rim mellows the tone greatly, as does the ancient thick calfskin head, and a bandanna stuffed under the strings behind the bridge. To me, it sounds Neapolitan. But I'm going deaf, so go figure.

Should every mando-junkie own a bowlback? Of course! And I'm going to Venice and Naples next year -- maybe I'll get lucky.

[crisscross]

Try playing a mandolin with an oval sound hole.

I've got a Pomeroy A2 that I really like, but for playing classical, to my ears my Suzuki M-6O bowlback sounds more appropriate. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5up4T6-_Kzw
Don't know about the UK, but here in Germany a used Suzuki MD-60 can be bought for about 300€. Getting one was one of my best investments so far.
It adds some pizza-napoli-feeling even to songs of catalan descent.

[MysTiK PiKn]

Every time I play one, or try, it ends up flipping itself upside down. I don't own one, and they don't like me. A friend has a really old one, had some repairs done, turned out nice. But it still flips upside down, or sideways; it won't stay still long enough. I keep telling him to get a strap on it. But it apparently doesn't like him either. It hangs on the wall, or leans in a corner. No one plays it.

I don't need one. Sorry I can't be more helpful. Some value them highly. Others will sell them at any price. Really, I don't understand. But I will be ok. Thanks.

[Jim Garber]

If you go really vintage we're talking friction pegs, which can be a major pain as well.

Huh? From late 19th and later vintage bowlbacks used geared tuners. Friction pegs maybe in the 18th century.

[brunello97]

Huh? From late 19th and later vintage bowlbacks used geared tuners. Friction pegs maybe in the 18th century.

I can deal with the friction pegs, Jim, all my 18th century mandolins keep flipping over on me.

Mick

[Jeff Mando]

Plenty of sweet deals out there for bowlbacks. Certainly a buyer's market. A quick glance at eBay's completed sales showed a ton of 'em for under $200, with many under $100. If you wanna spend $500 you can get a real museum piece. Still a bunch of nice ones out there.

OTOH, if you get tired of it, resale might be slow.....

[DavidKOS]

Check out Tony Flores's recordings for great sounding work of the Italian mandolin classics played on an import A model. Also Gus Garelick from the Hot Frittatas (on a Gibson A50). Matteo Casserino also played a Gibson. I'm still chasing their tone and tremolo.

.......

Jeff is right. Playing a bowlback is a delightful experience in its own right.

Fine players sound good on any sort of mandolin. I'm familiar with both players.

Every time I play one, or try, it ends up flipping itself upside down.

I was at a party with a Greek bouzouki player....both of us had bowlback instruments and no straps. We also played standing up to show someone that asked that a strap is not needed. Sitting, it's even easier to hold a bowl type instrument, but you have to learn how to hold it and let the bowl work for you.

[DavidKOS]

Plenty of sweet deals out there for bowlbacks. Certainly a buyer's market. A quick glance at eBay's completed sales showed a ton of 'em for under $200, with many under $100. If you wanna spend $500 you can get a real museum piece. Still a bunch of nice ones out there.

But you have to beware - many of the old bowlbacks are in need of restoration that can cost more than the value of the instrument on a crowded market.

However with care you can find nice old instruments. Be selective.

[JeffD]

Every time I play one, or try, it ends up flipping itself upside down..

Get some of this stuff. I don't know what they call it. Comes in different colors to match your ensemble. Cut a square foot, put it on your lap, that mandolin is not going anywhere.

[crisscross]

Cut a square foot, put it on your lap, that mandolin is not going anywhere.

Or, if you're not the DIY kind of person, you can order a "Zupfertuch"(picker's cloth). Prevents my bowlback and my domra from flipping itself upside down. http://www.musik-schiller.de/Academy...5_p224436.html

[Hany Hayek]

There is a big difference in sound between a banjo-mandolin and bowl back. I play both.
You are in the UK and can get your hand on a bowl back at a fair price. I say go for it. When you get used to holding it, you'll even play it standing up, sleeping on your back, walking around with it..
Your only problem could be the scale length. it will be 33 instead of the 35 you are playing. Everyone here say you get used to changing between the 2 fast.
Just make sure when you buy one it is in good playable conditions.

[Beanzy]

The question I would ask is would you appreciate a bowl-back? You're obviously beginning to appreciate the tonal differences between the types of mandolin, now it's jut a question of whether you can identify which of the Sounds you like and which mandolin will give you that. I view the instruments as the medium so this is like asking if you should paint your pictures in watercolour instead of oils. Certain subjects and styles will evoke better images in another medium and it is useful in communicating an idea or feel if you can make that connection in the listeners mind.

I'd also second Hany's comment that the UK is a great place to buy a bowl-back mandolin. They're still woefully under appreciated here by comparison with Italy, Germany and Japan, but there are some absolutely beautiful examples available. That's not going to last long with people like me encouraging others to look here, but I never did know how to look out for my own best interests.

[Jim Garber]

Also bear in mind that all bowlbacks are not alike. There is lots of junk out there or as others have noted ones that need lots of repairs. If you are in the UK look for DeMeglio or Ceccherini mandolins. They might cost you more but the tone will be there. Also they should be set up correctly with appropriate strings.

[multidon]

I just wanted to point out that in the early days of Gibson arch tops they were aggressively marketed as a vast improvement over bowl backs. I even remember a recent thread where someone found an old Gibson ad showing their arch tops chasing bowl backs into the river, or something like that. Maybe someone will re post that for us. It was funny stuff.

Also, in the golden age of mandolins, there was no bluegrass yet. Arch top mandolins, mandolas, cellos, and mandobass were marketed as primarily for use in mandolin orchestras, which played classical music as well as traditional folk tunes, including Italian. So it certainly would not be out of the question to perform Italian music on an arch top mandolin. Far from it.

As pointed out above, an oval hole may give you more of the tone you are looking for. I bet a nice F4 would be great for Italian music.

Also, many bowl backs have a shorter 13 inch scale, compared with 14 inch for most modern mandolins. That can require some adjustment period.

[DavidKOS]

I just wanted to point out that in the early days of Gibson arch tops they were aggressively marketed as a vast improvement over bowl backs. I even remember a recent thread where someone found an old Gibson ad showing their arch tops chasing bowl backs into the river, or something like that. Maybe someone will re post that for us. It was funny stuff.

Also, in the golden age of mandolins, there was no bluegrass yet. Arch top mandolins, mandolas, cellos, and mandobass were marketed as primarily for use in mandolin orchestras, which played classical music as well as traditional folk tunes, including Italian. So it certainly would not be out of the question to perform Italian music on an arch top mandolin. Far from it.

Indeed you can get a nice sound from Gibson-style mandolins.....even for Italian and classical mandolin music.

However, the one world market that has NOT succumbed to the archtop mandolin is the Italian and classical world, where a good bowlback is still considered to be preferred over archtops.

Those Gibson ads were pretty effective in convincing people that the new-fangled mandolins were "better", rather than just a new different voice. Add to it the revival of interest in mandolin that BG music has caused, of course based on archtop mandolins, that the current mandolin market is skewed far to the side of the archtop instrument.

[crisscross]

Also, many bowl backs have a shorter 13 inch scale, compared with 14 inch for most modern mandolins. That can require some adjustment period.

The shorter scale length in addition to a smaller string gauge is another factor responsible for the slightly different sound of a bowlback. Less string tension results in a somewhat sweeter sound.

[Carl Robin]

My first mandolin was a 1920's bowl back with family history. When it broke--due to old age, I got the first mandolin available. It was a flat back. I loved being able to go on practicing, but missed the bowl back. When I got another bowl back, after time had gone by, with more practice and experience, and compared the two side by side it was an easy decision. And for me, the flat back wins. So, do you need a bowl back? Yes, sounds like it. I wouldn't part with mine. It comes out now and then. Can't say I need it though.

[Martin Jonas]

Also bear in mind that all bowlbacks are not alike. There is lots of junk out there or as others have noted ones that need lots of repairs. If you are in the UK look for DeMeglio or Ceccherini mandolins. They might cost you more but the tone will be there. Also they should be set up correctly with appropriate strings.

I'll second that. These two great Neapolitan makers sold most of their output in the UK during the big mandolin boom from about 1895-1910 and have been sitting in their thousands in people's attics ever since. They regularly show up on Ebay UK and sell for very reasonable prices considering their quality. De Meglios were sold in greater numbers and are therefore easier to find. With a bit of patience you should be able to get one in good condition for around GBP200. Ceccherinis are a bit more rare and were also the more expensive instruments at the time, so expect to pay a bit more and/or search longer.

As with all Ebay finds, the problem is that condition is difficult to assess from photos and sellers tend not to know anything about mandolins. So, while you can get good deals cheap, there is a risk.

As an aside, I see that the OP is in Lancashire. If you're interested in Italian repertoire and in bowlbacks, and are within reach of the Wirral, you are welcome to join us in the Wirral Mandoliers for our weekly rehearsals/classical jam session in Wallasey. We play a mix of classical, Italian and folk repertoire and have hundreds of multipart arrangements that we mix-and-match as the fancy takes us. Drop me a PM if you're interested.

Martin