Do I need a bowlback?

[JeffD]

When I was first introduced to the mandolin, it was a bowlback. I fell in love with the thing. It was the perfect anti-guitar for a budding young contrarian like me.

When my father, seeing my enthusiasm, bought be a mandolin, he got me a Terada (Japanese made economy A style with F holes and a garish sunburst) from a television repair shop / music store. I was a little heartbroken because I wanted a bowl, but I did like it, and soon enough loved it, and played that thing for many years.

It was many many years later that I finally acquired a playable bowl, and what a thrill just to see my own hand holding that thing.

[JeffD]

I just wanted to point out that in the early days of Gibson arch tops they were aggressively marketed as a vast improvement over bowl backs..

This campaign had a lot of traction. Even today I have seen some websites and ads referring to bowlbacks as "old fashioned" mandolins. One ad I saw divided the whole world of mandolins into old fashioned bowlbacks, A styles, and F styles (used by professionals).

[mandopops]

I go along with Gibson Oval-hole Mandolins for Italian. I was in an Italian group for a couple of years and all of us played Gibson Ovals, F's or A's. Sounded terrific.
multidon just posted "bet an F4 would sound great for Italian", I know 1st hand they do.
Mr. Vicari didn't care for "The Gibs", but I think that was just the F5 style. He had an Gibson oval Mandola.
Don't hesitate to get a Bowl-back, tho.
Joe B

[Scot63]

I love my two. Next one I consider might come from David Hynds, who, as all the aficianados here know, repairs or rebuilds and sells them. With the exchange rate on the pound so low right now (he's located in England), he's got a number that would be inexpensive: http://www.mandolinluthier.com/mandolins_for_sale.htm

[Bob A]

There is a lot of difference between a Gibson mandolin and a bowlback; they are far apart tonally.

Some of the lightly-built flatback instruments might more closely approximate the bowlback sound, but for Italian mandolin music you need a bowlback. Sorry.

Actually, they are charming, pleasant instruments to play, and are not terribly expensive. I favor early 20th century Italian examples, but modern ones can be just as good, and even better sometimes. There are American bowlbacks available as well, usually at decent prices, since the US bowlbacks are not much known or sought by the Europeans or Japanese, which is where the main interest in these mandolins exists.

Anyone with enough interest in the variety of mandolin types and tones available, especially if he has an interest in Italian music, ought to consider acquiring one. It's a valid expression of MAS, and takes you back to the roots of the instrument.

The bowlback treble is much brighter and sparkling than the carved Gibsonesque mandolins, while the bass has none of the guitar-like presence of the Gibsons. String gauge is also considerably lighter, which makes a difference tonally.

Unless you are knowledgeable or lucky, it can be tricky getting your hands on a good one from sources like ebay. However, there is plenty of help to be found below in the Classical section, even a "Bowlbacks of Note" thread where instruments that appear on the market are discussed.


Or, to put it in a word, yes. You need a bowlback.

[DavidKOS]

Some of the lightly-built flatback instruments might more closely approximate the bowlback sound, but for Italian mandolin music you need a bowlback. Sorry.

Actually, they are charming, pleasant instruments to play, and are not terribly expensive.
...... takes you back to the roots of the instrument.

The bowlback treble is much brighter and sparkling than the carved Gibsonesque mandolins
.......
Or, to put it in a word, yes. You need a bowlback.

You guys heard the man, you DO need a real mandolin!

[brunello97]

Fine players sound good on any sort of mandolin. I'm familiar with both players.

I was a bowl snob for awhile myself. Then I heard Gus play "Speranze Perdute" on his A50. Opened my ears and my mind.

My days of ".....for Italian mandolin music you need a bowlback. Sorry." were over. Sorry, Bob.

The mandolin can make a difference. Your technique and feeling are what really matters.

I love playing bowlbacks. I'll let you snobs fight it out as to whether they are better or not.

Mick

[Bob A]

I was a bowl snob for awhile myself. Then I heard Gus play "Speranze Perdute" on his A50. Opened my ears and my mind.

My days of ".....for Italian mandolin music you need a bowlback. Sorry." were over. Sorry, Bob.

The mandolin can make a difference. Your technique and feeling are what really matters.

I love playing bowlbacks. I'll let you snobs fight it out as to whether they are better or not.

Mick

Ouch!

Aside from being shocked and, yes, broken-hearted, I still maintain that there is a specific bowlback tonality, and that the music developed around this class of mandolin deserves the opportunity to be played on one.

I don't say it is necessary.

The local Classical radio station keeps playing Scarlatti sonatas that are recorded on piano. That's fine, but the harpsichord is their proper medium.

The bluegrassers on the board would be displeased with their music played on a bowlback, but of course it can be done. Buy why?

I forgive you, Mick. We all stray from the fold, from time to time, and who's to say it isn't a valuable experience? But don't forget, we are put here to be vectors of MAS.

[brunello97]

Ouch!

Aside from being shocked and, yes, broken-hearted, I still maintain that there is a specific bowlback tonality, and that the music developed around this class of mandolin deserves the opportunity to be played on one.

I don't say it is necessary.

The local Classical radio station keeps playing Scarlatti sonatas that are recorded on piano. That's fine, but the harpsichord is their proper medium.

The bluegrassers on the board would be displeased with their music played on a bowlback, but of course it can be done. Buy why?

I forgive you, Mick. We all stray from the fold, from time to time, and who's to say it isn't a valuable experience? But don't forget, we are put here to be vectors of MAS.

Bob, like I used to tease Eugene: you're a bowlback snob, but you're our bowlback snob. I do also appreciate your advocacy for well made cant-top / flat back mandolins of which I have a few that I delight in. The spruce / rosewood mix is wonderful.

BTW, I do have a slightly oversized bowl (ostensibly from Battle Creek ?!) that I tune as CGDA. Love to play "Jerusalem Ridge" on it. All those great bass runs now get some unanticipated tremolo--which is why I flipped over Gus's version of "Speranze" in the first place.

There's no "why", there just "is".

One of my greatest delights is to sit with my Vinaccia, Gibson and Leland and play through a set of old Italian songs and hearing what each instrument requires of my playing and extracts from the music.

Mick

[DavidKOS]

I was a bowl snob for awhile myself. ......
The mandolin can make a difference. Your technique and feeling are what really matters.

I love playing bowlbacks. I'll let you snobs fight it out as to whether they are better or not.

Ouch!

Aside from being shocked and, yes, broken-hearted, I still maintain that there is a specific bowlback tonality, and that the music developed around this class of mandolin deserves the opportunity to be played on one.

I don't say it is necessary.

One of my greatest delights is to sit with my Vinaccia, Gibson and Leland and play through a set of old Italian songs and hearing what each instrument requires of my playing and extracts from the music.

I am a bowl snob too, but do like my flatback mandolins too. I played a F copy in an Italian group about a decade ago, and it worked fine, I just like the feel and sound of a bowlback a bit better.

As far as instrument specific music - sure the composer's intention is often best served on the period or specific instrument intended, but the music world would be much poorer without transcriptions and adaptations of music for instruments that were not the intended ones.

I love Bach played on a harpsichord, clavichord or pipe organ, but wouldn't miss a good piano performance of his music, and more people play Bach on piano than period instruments.

So yes I'm a bowlback snob, but not enough to let it get in the way.

And I'd rather play on a good archtop than a bad bowlback....but a good bowlback is such a pleasure.

[allenhopkins]

If you're an informed and careful buyer, there are so many vintage bowl-backs available, at reasonable prices, that there's little reason not to get a bowl-back, even if it's just to see whether its distinctive sound and somewhat non-ergonomic shape merit a place in your mandolin arsenal.

Now, I spent a few years in pursuit of a vintage bowl-back mandocello to round out my bowl-back family; that was a different story, 'cause there aren't many around. Finally scored an old Waldo, to go with my Washburn bowl-back mandola, and my B&J Victoria and Merrill bowl-back mandolins. I'm going to be doing an "antique instrument show-and-tell" for a historical society tomorrow, and will be glad to have the range of bowl-back instruments.

[Tezzerh]

Some really interesting, indeed fascinating stuff here. Thanks all. Now I know I definitely DO need a bowlback! A couple more queries to follow my original post. Can you fit a strap to a bowlback? And has anyone any views on Suzuki bowlbacks, which seem affordable and look rather nice, too? But how do they sound and play?

[Beanzy]

The Suzukis are normally well built and I have heard a few in the flesh where they held up well enough by comparison with the other instruments in the orchestra. However if I was unfamiliar with what to look for & looking for a mandolin in the UK I'd be looking towards the DeMiglio level vintage ones. Coming new to them you may be better off buying from a competent restorer such as Dave Hynds at http://www.mandolinluthier.com/mandolins_for_sale.htm. Or our "Tavy" http://jzmaddock.web44.net/restorations.html

Some of those instruments have gone for a price I would consider a fraction of the value you'd get out of playing it and without the headache of wondering if you'd get a lemon by bidding blindly on eBay etc.

[crisscross]

I have two Suzukis, an M-30 with a maple bowl and an M-60 with a rosewood bowl. I like the sound of the M-60 slightly better, it seems a bit rounder. Both are well made and play well. Someone commented that the lacquer is a bit to thick, but that doesn't bother me. I got them both for a third of the new price in almost new condition.
Here's a recording I did with the M-30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ge7WK-EgTJQ
And the M-60 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5zzbWxGmzY
The M-60 sounds a little smoother, but one of the reasons might be the Dogal Calace strings, whereas on the M-30 are GHS phosphor-bronze strings. Well, I wouldn't part with either.

[allenhopkins]

...Can you fit a strap to a bowlback?...

I take a shoelace, or a very thin leather thong, and tie it around the headstock just above the nut, and around the tailpiece. Provides enough support to hold the instrument when standing, and to regulate the neck angle when either standing or sitting.

Easier to deal with the bowl-back's tendency to "roll" while playing, if you're not also using the fretting and picking hands to support it.

[DavidKOS]

Can you fit a strap to a bowlback?

I take a shoelace, or a very thin leather thong, and tie it around the headstock just above the nut, and around the tailpiece. Provides enough support to hold the instrument when standing, and to regulate the neck angle when either standing or sitting.

That works and I've done it for Renn Faires when I was carrying a mandolin all day...but you really do NOT need a strap for general usage with a bowlback mandolin, nor any other for that matter.

[Petrus]

Huh? From late 19th and later vintage bowlbacks used geared tuners. Friction pegs maybe in the 18th century.

Yes, thus "really vintage." They also used gut strings, iirc, like the lute or oud. Here's a nice 1763 Vinaccia ...

[Bob A]

Some really interesting, indeed fascinating stuff here. Thanks all. Now I know I definitely DO need a bowlback! A couple more queries to follow my original post. Can you fit a strap to a bowlback? And has anyone any views on Suzuki bowlbacks, which seem affordable and look rather nice, too? But how do they sound and play?

Congrats on your decision; you will not be disappointed, I trust.

I've seen one guy with a strap on his bowlback, but it was a long time ago and he was German. I didn't care for it. My preference for bowlbacks is for light and lightly-built instruments, which seems to enhance the qualities that you want in a bowlback - or at least, what I want in a bowlback instrument. So they don't tend to weigh you down. Over the years I've worked on developing a sort of shelf-like proturbance just below my ribcage, for the purpose of resting the bowl upon.

A long time ago, decades in fact, before the idea of playing a bowlback personally entered my consiciousness, I wanted to get one for my father, who used to play one in his youth, and had remarked that he wondered what had happened to it. I went out into the world and searched for one locally - there was no internet then. The only one I found was a Suzuki, which I purchased for him.

It was a fairly handsome instrument, built along the lines of a Calace, stout and sturdy. It was OK, I guess, but it didn't compare to the Italian ones I played later, nor yet to the American instruments of quality - high-end Vega, Martin and Larson Bros instruments. I ended up giving it away after he had passed.

I'd say look for an Italian instrument from the time when the mandolin was in flower; get it from someone who knows about such things, like Dave Hynds. The nice thing about the older Italian examples is that those made by decent makers were made to be played, not to serve as tourist trash. Even a plain-Jane Salsedo, DeMeglio, Ceccerini or such will have The Sound, so long as it's in decent shape. The fancier ones may have greater attention to detail and ornamentation, but the liuterias of Napoli had integrity, and made good instruments at all price points.

As you're already in Europe, the Land of the Bowl, you should have opportunities to handle a number of bowlbacks; do so, and pick the one that sings to you.

[brunello97]

A couple nice Spruce / Rosewood flatback mandolins in the classifieds right now for those following the discussion.

I second (or third) Bob's recommendation list for bowls. Another resource in the UK for repairs / restorations / sales is our good friend, John Maddock, who goes by Tavy here. He does exceptionally good looking work. Triangulating a wise purchase between the seller, John and yourself would yield a fine instrument.

Can't say I share the enthusiasm for Suzuki mandolins. Granted, I have only played three, and owned one for awhile. The necks were like Louisville Sluggers (made my Vega feel like a Vinaccia) and the sound was muddy and unresponsive. Others certainly must have had better examples, but a halfway decent Washburn would make a better (and more lovely) alternative in my mind.

Mick

[Martin Jonas]

I second (or third) Bob's recommendation list for bowls. Another resource in the UK for repairs / restorations / sales is our good friend, John Maddock, who goes by Tavy here. He does exceptionally good looking work. Triangulating a wise purchase between the seller, John and yourself would yield a fine instrument.

Can't say I share the enthusiasm for Suzuki mandolins.

I agree with Mick on all of those. Check out what John Maddock has for sale -- one of the players in our ensemble bought a De Meglio from John through the Cafe classifieds. Very reasonably priced, sympathetically restored and perfectly set up.

I'm not keen on Suzuki mandolins either, although my Suzuki mandocello is a very nice instrument. A good vintage Italian is the way to go.

As Lancashire is close(ish) to me, you're also welcome to drop by to see/try my bowlbacks (a Ceccherini and an Embergher at the moment).

Martin

[k0k0peli]

I now have a bowlback of sorts. Specifically, a bowlback banjo-cittern. I've finished restringing my fretted 12-string Cümbüş in fifths from C2 to E4 (five courses) -- might add a C5 course when/if I get comfortable with it. The 'bowl' is steel, a foot in diameter and 5.5 inches deep, with a plastic drumhead. No, it hasn't much of a Neapolitan feel.

[DavidKOS]

I now have a bowlback of sorts. Specifically, a bowlback banjo-cittern. I've finished restringing my fretted 12-string Cümbüş in fifths from C2 to E4 (five courses) -- might add a C5 course when/if I get comfortable with it. The 'bowl' is steel, a foot in diameter and 5.5 inches deep, with a plastic drumhead. No, it hasn't much of a Neapolitan feel.

Those actually work pretty well when you get them adjusted.

Try putting a bit of foam between the strings and the skin by the tailpiece, it kills some discordant overtones.

[k0k0peli]

Those actually work pretty well when you get them adjusted.

Try putting a bit of foam between the strings and the skin by the tailpiece, it kills some discordant overtones.

I have an old sock dedicated to that purpose. Also to keep my palm from being punctured by the flying bridge's sharp corners while fingerpicking. And I find that, yes, fingering fifth-tuned chords on a 21.5-inch scale axe is a different experience. Even though my fingers span nine inches I must *really* stretch to play stuff that's easy on mandolin. This needs a (for me) whole new approach to playing, sort of like switching from electric bass to guitarrón mexicano. It's an interesting challenge. I'll post a full report on the conversion in another thread.

I'll stay on the lookout for a mandola. Maybe a bowlback mandola? [/me tries to stay on-topic]

[Tavy]

I agree with Mick on all of those. Check out what John Maddock has for sale -- one of the players in our ensemble bought a De Meglio from John through the Cafe classifieds. Very reasonably priced, sympathetically restored and perfectly set up.

That's good to hear

I don't currently have any bowls for sale or I might have chimed in.... coming up shortly though will be a 12-string (mandriola) bowlback, and a Checcherini that only arrived here yesterday so I haven't even evaluated it yet.

I'm not keen on Suzuki mandolins either, although my Suzuki mandocello is a very nice instrument. A good vintage Italian is the way to go.

Interesting, I actually grew to quite like the Suzuki I had - though it was a little quiet - perhaps more for playing at home than projecting when out and about. As many of you will know, I have a serious soft spot for the US made bowls, and the Fred Martin (A C Fairbanks) is the only one I really miss - better than either of the Vega's that have passed through IMO.

BTW, IMO you do not actually need a bowlback for this style of music, it depends very much how and where you play. What the bowlbacks do give you is that chirpy treble sound that really projects playing acoustically in larger spaces, and doesn't get in the way of other instruments (guitars for example). What an archtop gives you is bottom end growl for rhythmic playing, or moody solos They are actually much better balanced, and better sounding instruments in isolation... and yet, in an ensemble a bowl can come through better. Like this one using the Fred Martrin for lead:

[Gan Ainm]

I played in a "working" Italian group for a number of years (you know, dozens of dollars) and loved the bowlback sound and look if I had decent PA mics, since it was soft. I played quite a few and chose a Bruno 20's import over an old Martin for same price because I just liked the sound better- definitely good to play a bunch before you buy. For noisier or mixed style gigs I would default to my Gibson A2 which sounded good but as others pointed out, different. The bowlback is also good for certain reenactment opportunities, i.e periods or settings where the Gibson would not be found. For future MAS lust I do daydream about one of the Carlo Aonzo models, because, you know, it would make me sound just like him…