OT? -- Zero Fret Question

[Frank Ford]

When we set the action at a conventional slotted nut we generally try to set it such that when the string is pressed between frets 2 and 3, it clears the first fret by a very slight amount - a couple of thousandths, usually. In order to achieve that same kind of action and clearance for the open string, a zero fret needs to be that same tiny amount higher than the corresponding frets.

Why do we want that little extra clearance for the open string?


1. the open string tends to ring a bit more because it isn't damped by the fretting finger, so it may be held a bit more firmly. That tiny extra clearance helps keep open strings from buzzing while not sacrificing much ease of play.

2. open strings may get hit a bit harder, particularly the bass ones in heavy attack, because they are not as "protected" from a deeper pick attack as the others that are shielded by the bass strings. Most obvious in chording, where a big windmill attack can whack that G string on a mandolin a guitar's low E.

3. Tuning draws wound strings across the nut or zero fret, causing a bit of wear, resulting in lower action over time, and possible buzzing. Having the zero fret exactly at the minimum height allows for no margin of safety on that.

Those are general considerations for most instruments. Dulcimers virtually never have "challenging" action if they are in relatively good shape with decent fret and fingerboard condition. A little extra height at the nut or zero fret won't be much of a problem, and has been well said earlier, the low tension strings won't be as likely to rattle against the first regular fret.

[multidon]

Thank you Frank! Pretty much what I said previously, only said much better. I feel vindicated.

[ProfChris]

I'm only a humble hobby ukulele maker with only a tiny fraction of Frank's experience (frets.com is brilliant, BTW, especially on hide glue).

As a zero fret user from the start I began by installing a larger size as the zero. But the look is not great, and I've found that it works (for me) to use the same size but to level all the other frets, leaving the zero untouched. This leaves my zero a little higher, but less so than picking a larger size.

However, nylon strings take decades to wear grooves, and the higher action required for nylon might mean the other problems Frank identifies don't occur. Not recommending this for steel strings, but offering it as an observation in case it is helpful to someone.

[ProfChris]

And another thing - Frank's point 1 is what I find even on a uke. The zero fret note rings more and sustains longer than a fretted note. Theory says it shouldn't but, in case anyone disbelieved Frank, he has at least one supporter.

[Jim Adwell]

I have made many instruments with zero frets, both steel string and nylon, and I've found that as long as the fingerboard is flat and the frets are properly leveled, and the "nut", which is really a string guide, is properly slotted and the strings do not touch the bottoms of the slots, I have no problems with buzzing open strings no matter how hard I strum, assuming there are no other frets that buzz under heavy strumming (which can happen if the action is too low). I've made my share of mistakes with zero frets; I've learned not to make the nut too far from the zero fret, to make sure the string guide slots are deep enough, to make sure I don't bear down at the end of the fingerboard when levelling the frets and thus make the zero fret lower than the other frets.

I used to think that zero frets would wear more than than the others, but I've been told here and other places that it isn't so, and if you think about, there's a lot more string movement on the other frets as they are fretted and move sideways a tiny amount during normal playing. We've all seen frets with dips worn in them, I'm sure.

[fscotte]

This is all very confusing and I think it just comes down to tradition. We do what we do because someone else did it. While I do see Frank Ford's point that open strings ring more, isn't a zero fret the same as a string fretted on the 1st fret and 2nd and 3rd, etcc...? Why would a zero fret be considered an "open string" but not a string fretted at the 1st fret, or at the 2nd fret, etc..? So why make the zero fret higher? IS it open strings when you use a capo? Why or why not?

[MysTiK PiKn]

If I were working on a dulcy, I would work with what was there already, assuming no great wear. So high, or low, I would deal with it; unless client wanted other.
I find this all to be completely fascinating; and am enjoying it as such.
Also, if a string rings longer or shorter, to me, it's just a function, and it's the sound, of a dulcimer - which is simply cool.
I will allow you your opinions, and methods, if you will allow me mine. If mine fails, I will fix it.
I can't help but think that much of this is a storm in a teacup; or the mystery of the year. Whatever it is, it is; and I not going to get my knickers in a knot. Whoops, maybe they already are.

[John Arnold]

The acid test is whether there is more buzzing on open strings than fretted ones. I have seen very few cases where a nut that is set at fret height buzzes more on open strings. The 'harm' in raising the nut above fret height is twofold.....it makes the instrument unnecessarily harder to play, and it causes sharp intonation when fretting near the nut.
If you are compensating for wear by making a zero fret higher, you are in it for a very long haul. Zero frets wear very slowly.

In either of these scenarios, that would mean all of the first fret action/clearance would come from the string angle induced by the bridge. Correct?

Correct. As previously pointed out, on any fretted note, the next fret clearance is determined by the bridge height. Set the nut at fret height, and the geometry is the same. If it doesn't buzz on fretted notes, then it should not buzz on open notes. If it does buzz on fretted notes, raising the nut does nothing to help. What a concept.

[multidon]

John, again we will have to agree to disagree.

What little bit I know about luthiery I learned from three different source said: the various writings of Dan Erlewine (books, Trade Secrets newsletters), Frank Ford's Frets.com, and posts in the section, most especially posts from Dale Ludewig and John Hammlett, who are both most generous with their advice. All of the above, I feel we can agree, qualify as experts.

Dan Erlewine suggests that the nut slots should be cut a little higher than the first fret. Frank Ford states in his Frets.com article that when the string is fretted at the third fret there should be a very slight space between the string and the first fret. And for my third source, John H. has not chimed in but Dale states that theoretically a nut slot can be cut to the heights of the first fret, theory is one thing and practice is another.

With all due respect, I believe Dan, Frank, and Dale. We are talking about thousands of an inch here, and my instruments that are set up a tiny bit high at the nut (I emphasize tiny bit) display no noticeable intonation or playability issues,

[fscotte]

(I emphasize tiny bit) display no noticeable intonation or playability issues,

I couldn't disagree more. Thousandths of an inch are very noticeable. I struggle with the nut setup myself because I just don't know for sure if I can go any lower or not even though I leave a tiny gap like you do too. The effects of just a "bit more" especially on the E and A strings are noticeable and every additional bit helps playability.

[multidon]

Interesting discussion. My Weber had factory set up when I bought it and I haven't fooled with the nut, only bridge height. My Breedlove and my Kentucky were both purchased from The Mandolin Store. They both had shop set up there and again I have adjusted the bridge but not fooled with the nut. All three instrument play easily and sound great.

I have only adjusted nuts on my guitars, not any of the mandolins I presently own. After all they all came with set ups and seemed fine to me. But I am curious about the nut action on all of them. I will get out my feeler gauges this evening and check them out. When I have data I will report back.

[Frank Ford]

We are talking about thousands of an inch here, and my instruments that are set up a tiny bit high at the nut (I emphasize tiny bit) display no noticeable intonation or playability issues,

That's right, and it's what I tried to convey in my little discussion. Just a tiny margin of safety over the "theoretical" lowest possible nut or zero fret height, it can make the difference over time, and sometimes in the playing of open strings right from the start. It's hardly a matter of national emergency - simply a practical guide to regular fretted instrument setup.

There are even instances when it can be reasonable to make the nut a bit lower than the first fret in an effort to make first position playing possible on an instrument with a seriously compromised neck, fingerboard and/or frets.

In the end, we try to set up instruments to work well for the player, not to conform to arbitrary specifications that may not be appropriate.

[MysTiK PiKn]

I couldn't disagree more. Thousandths of an inch are very noticeable. I struggle with the nut setup myself because I just don't know for sure if I can go any lower or not even though I leave a tiny gap like you do too. The effects of just a "bit more" especially on the E and A strings are noticeable and every additional bit helps playability.

I am thnking of taking my mandolin down this road of no return. My setup is getting so nice to the point where the nut has announced itself as too high, hard feel, but it works ok for sound. I want the right tool.
Take a little more..... welcome to the dark side. Note this is on mandolin; and it all matters ALOT. For playing, for sound, for buzz control, for heel, action, etc. It's a deal breaker.

mystical update:
Back to the evolved topic:
The Dulcimer - well everyone keeps saying the same thing - and there's still no relief setting on the dulcimer, or if there is, it's hidden, or a misuse of the bridge, which might work, even though the high bridge is not trussrod curved neck relief -it's an action adjustment, and with tall bridge we do see some relief. I don't think anyone disagrees with this part - a higher bridge does yield relief, at the expense of increased action = maybe action is ok, or maybe it's too high. I would think since mere thousandths are proposed as acceptable relief already, that a slight raise of the bridge should also yield thousandths at the opposite end.
(more)
The VERY SLIGHTLY HIGH zerofret = It seems that only creates relief for open string, and many are saying that relief is not required for the open string. There's simply no problems reported by experienced people right here on our wonderful forum.
A high zero seems to mainly deal with another phenomenon. Namely, backbuzz - behind the fretted note. Backbuzz is a disputed point also. (Not a surprise). It seems to me that a high zerofret has more to offer as an offset to backbuzz; by inducing slight relief in the entire reverse direction
And the bridge slightly increased seems to yield slight relief throughout.
And all frets are agreed to be levelled in all cases, by everyone.
(almost there)
So, there is no relief applied to the level frets, or fretboard itself, and upper frets don't need it. The only suspect and disputed region is the zerofret - the nut is a non-issue, and the 1stfret is a non-issue. The only thing that seems logical is that the zerofret is a mere backbuzz controller. This can be stated as relief for the first fret - but it's main purpose shines as backbuzz control throughout, by slightly inducing reverse-relief.
It also makes a great conversation piece. And backbuzz relief may not be needed; indeed so it seems. So, it's an option, or a preference. I don't think I would quit the jam session over some backbuzz on my Dulcy.

Cheers.

[multidon]

Results of my measurements on my own instruments. Action at nut measured on the bass side with feeler gauges:

Weber Bitterroot A, factory set up by Weber: .002
Breedlove FO, set up by The Mandolin Store: .003
Kentucky KM-600, set up by The Mandolin Store: .002

[Dale Ludewig]

Don,

Thank you for your compliments. I would never claim to be an expert. I aim to get things as good as possible and to suit a particular player. Within limits, I'd like the setup on an instrument to not get in the way of making music. In fact, to make the setup unnoticeable.

That said, I'd like to clarify a bit. And Frank has already said much of what I'm thinking. I don't measure anything when doing a setup. If it's a new build, I level the frets and dress them etc. dead flat. Then I put the nut on and cut the slots, leaving them slightly high. Then string it up and let it sit for a day or two before messing much with the nut slots. Of course, I'm playing it but I want things to settle in a bit. See where the neck is going on its own. The truss rod nut was just snugged up before stringing up, no more. I want to see where things are moving around.

Then, under full tension except for the string slot I'm working on, I file the slot down to where I'm in the danger zone. Remember, at this point, there are no straight lines on the neck geometry anymore. It's under tension and has (it better have) a little relief from the string tension. All I'm doing is filing the slot so that it clears the first fret such that the clearance is almost visually identical to the clearance on the second fret when I fret the string at the first. One too many passes with the file and it's too late, as Frank said. Nothing is measured. I tend to leave the wound string slots just a little little bit higher because they're more likely to rattle and they also have an abrasive effect when you're changing strings and dragging them through the slot.

This has gone far afield from the dulcimer, which has no relief from string tension. But I think the more we think about this stuff, the better we can get at it.

[Tom Haywood]

I'm convinced the geometry is not as critical on the mountain dulcimers as on other instruments. The evidence demonstrates it. The one mentioned earlier that I just repaired has a zero fret that is the same height as the others. After making a new slightly taller saddle, the only buzz occurs on the fourth and fifth frets due to a hump there in the fingerboard, and it only occurs if tuned below D, i.e. fairly loose strings. It plays very easily, whether slide or noting. My own dulcimer is a rather expensive, nice one. It has no zero fret, the second fret is higher than the first and third (it rocks noticeably), and the nut slots are slightly lower than the first fret, yet it does not buzz. The action is set correctly which, on this instrument, has the string height at the first fret 1/32", and at the 12th fret 9/32". The strings are the same as the top three strings on an acoustic guitar (.012, .022, light gauge) but are tuned below guitar pitch, so they are loose and very easy to play even though the action looks high. Therefore, raising the strings at the saddle is what makes sense, and in fact several people here recommend that from experience.

[multidon]

Well yes our discussion has gone far from the original intent. Dr. H has had his question answered long ago. But threads like this have a way of morphing. Zero fret, or not? If you have one, should it be the same size or higher? Then we got into nut action. Level with the first fret or not? And in what ways is an instrument with a neck different from a dulcimer without a neck? We got off topic but really interesting thread.

When mentioning my luthiers that I learned from, I forgot to mention Paul Hostetter. Another gentleman who is very generous with his knowledge. My thanks to him as well.

For a while I aspired to build instruments but ultimately decided it was not for me. But I still do some of my own set ups and have retained my tools that are appropriate to that purpose. But the biggest benefit I got from my study, informal though it may be, is that when I talk to a repair guy, using correct language to describe the problem. That has been very helpful indeed, even if I don't do the work myself.

Again, I for one have found the discussion very enlightening. Hope others feel the same.

[Tavy]

Again, I for one have found the discussion very enlightening. Hope others feel the same.

+1.

And as always, the answer is "just find a way to make it work".

[multidon]

Tavy, that really says it all!

[fscotte]

Would the fact that a mandolin resonates more near the key of D (air chamber generally near D) have anything to do with the fact that a zero fret/nut should be a tad higher?