Truss Rod Wrench Won't Fit Hole

[multidon]

Emmett, it is interesting to me that you found a luthier that "fixes things like Lloyd Loar F-5s and such". Only 326 Loar F-5s are believed to have been made, and only in the neighborhood of 230 have been accounted for. We all know that they are quite valuable, and as a result of that only a relative handful of luthiers are trusted enough for the owner of a Loar to have them do work on them. These relatively few top of the heap luthiers are very well known to the mandolin community. And all the Loars seem to gravitate to them. So I am a bit incredulous that an unknown luthier works on Loars (plural) and such. What is the such, by the way? Loars are unique. I can't think of anything that would go into that "such" category other than modern master grade instruments like Gilchrists or Dudenbostels.

Maybe you could ask him if he would mind sharing his name here? Surely it would be a great service to our community to have knowledge of another skilled luthier who seems to be flying under the radar.

Sounds like your guy talks good game. I hope for your sake he has the skills to back it up and you end up with a great instrument.

[sunburst]

...only a relative handful of luthiers are trusted enough for the owner of a Loar to have them do work on them. These relatively few top of the heap luthiers are very well known to the mandolin community. And all the Loars seem to gravitate to them...

It is true, what you say, that Loar owners often seek out the top names when the time comes to have work done on a Loar. However, there are excellent repair people, scattered about, flying under the radar, who are plenty competent to do repair work on Loars, Gilchrists and Dudenbostels. Heck, I've worked on Loars, Gilchrists and Dudenbostels (yes, plural). Many more than a handful of people are capable of such work.
What we tend to see now days is: people buy Loar mandolins as investments because of the high market value, When they need repairs, owners are thinking of resale value as well as preserving value in general, and if a top name can be listed as doing the repair, the perception is that that will look better to potential buyers. Interestingly top names of mandolin builders seem to carry more weight than "top" repair people, who, after all, are generally not as well known as people whose names are inlaid prominently in the pegheads of star's mandolins.
No particular point to this post other than; more than just a handful of luthiers can fix a Loar (or other "high end" mandolin), and there's a good chance we've "never heard of" quite a few of them. Seeking out the "top names" for Loar repair is more political than it is practical because lesser known people may be equally competent and qualified (if not more so) as a top builder.
Take frets, for example. Lets suppose a "top" builder has built 500 mandolins. If he/she doesn't also do repair work, he/she might have done only 500 fret jobs, and no re-frets. Compare that to someone who has worked in instrument repair for decades but has not built any instruments, or has built very few. He/she may have done thousands of re-frets and countless other repairs. Who is likely to be most well known? Who is likely to be the better repair person?

Anyway, back on topic...
Emmett, glad you found someone to fix your mando, and I hope it comes back to you playing great.

[Dale Ludewig]

I couldn't agree more with John. Building and repair are very different areas. I've seen instruments built by great builders that aren't set up very well, for example. If you're building and you blow something, you can pitch it into the trash (or fire) and start over. No such luxury if you're dealing with someone else's instrument. Repair work is also done on a finished instrument. The bulk of the work of building is done before the finish goes on. All sorts of ways to cover your tracks in the latter case. I know a couple of incredible repair people who haven't built an instrument.

[multidon]

John, Dale, I am actually in agreement with both of you.

I use the term "luthier" to refer to both those who make instruments and those who repair them. Perhaps you guys think of luthiers only as makers, but the dictionary definition includes repair folks, too.

Notice in my post that I didn't say only a handful of luthiers were capable of repairing a Loar, but rather only a handful are trusted. That trust a Loar owner places in their repair person may be rational or irrational, but John you definitely hit the nail on the head when you bring up the investment and resale value. These days I think a lot of Loar owners want to be able to tell potential buyers that the work was done by a well known person to preserve that value. Being able to name the person with a reputation is a sales plus. It is so in the violin world as well and has been for as long as I can remember. The attitude is that you wouldn't take you Strad to just anybody.

The luthier who worked on my violins before I moved is one of the best repair people I know, but only tried to build an instrument once and apparently it turned out so badly it was destroyed and building was never attempted again. So I understand that aspect for sure.

If I used the term "luthier" incorrectly, my apologies. I really thought it applied to builders a repair peop,e both.

[Robbie Hamlett]

Hi Don, this is my first post, I have been reading Mandolin Café for quite sometime but never joined as I am not a mandolin player, my only real association with the mandolin is I'm a John Hamlett's sister! After reading your last post here, I looked up the definition of "luthier" and in some cases, you are correct, luthier is defined as one who builds and/or repairs stringed instruments, in other cases it is defined as one who builds stringed instruments such as violins. So there does seem to be some leeway in who is considered a luthier! If I knew how to post a link I would.

[Dale Ludewig]

Robbie, he's kept you a secret! Next time we talk, he's got some 'splainin' to do!

[sunburst]

...If I used the term "luthier" incorrectly, my apologies. I really thought it applied to builders a repair peop,e both...

The term "luthier" definitely does apply to both builders and repairers. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. Under the heading "luthier", however, there are specialists in building, specialists in repair, and those who function in both worlds.

So Dale, any siblings in your family? We don't know about them...

[Dale Ludewig]

One brother.

Aren't you going to have to change your "location" in your sign on info sometime soon?

[multidon]

Hi Robbie! Welcome to the Cafe!

I'm an only child, if anyone gives a #%^*.

[sunburst]

Aren't you going to have to change your "location" in your sign on info sometime soon?

Seems like its taking forever(!) but yes, I guess I'll get around to changing my "location" eventually.
Let's see... what was this thread about??

[multidon]

Five pages and over a hundred posts because someone's truss rod wrench wouldn't fit in the hole. In other words, business as usual around these parts.

[Emmett Marshall]

Sounds like your guy talks good game. I hope for your sake he has the skills to back it up and you end up with a great instrument.

mutlidon:

It is not my place to "offer him up" to this community. He does not advertise. He gets his work by word of mouth. This is how he wants it. If it weren't for that, I'd have shared his name with you already. I can tell you for an absolute fact that he recently set up a 1923 Lloyd Loar F5. There is more proof to this than him simply telling me that. He has also been a luthier and builder for over 30 years. There is nothing I can do about anyone finding this "incredulous." No offense, but I actually had to laugh. I find someone who fixes fine string instruments and probably doesn't want to get swamped. I don't understand why this would be an issue for anyone?

[Jeff Mando]

mutlidon:

It is not my place to "offer him up" to this community. He does not advertise. He gets his work by word of mouth. This is how he wants it. If it weren't for that, I'd have shared his name with you already. I can tell you for an absolute fact that he recently set up a 1923 Lloyd Loar F5. There is more proof to this than him simply telling me that. He has also been a luthier and builder for over 30 years. There is nothing I can do about anyone finding this "incredulous." No offense, but I actually had to laugh. I find someone who fixes fine string instruments and probably doesn't want to get swamped. I don't understand why this would be an issue for anyone?

I agree there is a whole world of collecting that exists outside of internet forums and has for many years. Many older (and some younger) collectors don't even know what the internet is, and certainly don't care. They would never dream of buying a guitar without first playing it and would never buy from eBay, for whatever reason they may have. Many, also, have "world class" collections that most pros would be jealous of. Speaking from my own experience, working at a vintage guitar store, I got to meet many of these people. If I made a mental list of all the "rare" guitars and instruments I've worked on over the years, you wouldn't believe me, both vintage as well as modern boutique. The instruments are out there and from time to time, need repair. Some of the collectors will not leave an instrument overnight, for whatever fears they may have--fire, theft, etc.,--certainly paranoia to the extreme for the welfare of their instruments. One man would drive two hours for me to work on his old Gibson J-35 on a Saturday morning, I would work on it all day while he shopped, ran errands, ate, etc., and when I was finished hours later, he would take it and drive two hours back home. He would never dream of shipping an instrument and putting it to such risk. If he felt it needed more work, we would schedule it again for another Saturday. A totally different mentality than what we commonly consider the normal around here. And "normal" for me is dealing with clientele who are fussy by nature. My point is that I am not a "big name" luthier, but merely someone he trusts to work on his "baby". Not to brag, but I don't advertise, either, and I have been lucky to have had plenty of work over the years. It is not hard for me to believe that there would be repairmen all over the country with similar experiences.

[multidon]

Hey there emmett, I meant no disrespect. The way you expressed it, "things like Loar F-5s and such", it just sounded a little off to me. Like an unsubstantiated boast perhaps? As discussed above, most Loar owners these days seem to want to have them worked on by "name" luthiers. Now your post and Jeff's above have taught me that there is an "underground" of "stealth" luthiers out there working on high level instruments. I really don't understand how ones finds out about these folk. "Word of mouth" is fine I guess, but what if someone needs a luthier like that but isn't plugged into whatever network or circle or whatever your guy travels in?

I have no particular interest, this is no issue for me, I don't live in your state and most likely never will. It's just if there is someone out there that's that good, well, folks like to know about it. But if he, and others like Jeff, prefer to stay under the radar, that's their business for sure.

Again, no offense intended. My apologies.

[MysTiK PiKn]

The "paranoia" is the only real insurance, or assurance, that's available. Unique pieces, usually "olde", but not necessarily, often cannot be replaced. Insurance just doesn't cut it; money doesn't replace what THAT is.!!!
It's not easy finding someone to trust. I trusted one person, offered his name, and recommended him - but when I needed work on my mando, he wouldn't go there - he referred me to some other person. So, Now what? I called a well known luthier, left messages, emailed - no response, no contact. Found out that person has a reputation for not responding - I suppose he's busy doing what he wants to do. And why not? For me, it's not only difficult finding someone, it's also difficult retaining such a trusted contact. Threet Guitars was THE place when I lived in Alberta - but Threet stopped repairing due to a waiting list 2 years deep for new guitars. Anyway, all this led to me doing my own work, as much as possible. But there's some other work I would like done - and I could perhaps do it myself; but I hesitate on that "perhaps" word. Sometimes I think sell it; but I can't get another one. And my situation is just tiny compared to bigtime collectors - that's a whole other world. What are these guys doing with herds of instruments? Hopeless addiction? maybe..........

[Emmett Marshall]

Hey there emmett, I meant no disrespect. The way you expressed it, "things like Loar F-5s and such", it just sounded a little off to me. Like an unsubstantiated boast perhaps? As discussed above, most Loar owners these days seem to want to have them worked on by "name" luthiers. Now your post and Jeff's above have taught me that there is an "underground" of "stealth" luthiers out there working on high level instruments. I really don't understand how ones finds out about these folk. "Word of mouth" is fine I guess, but what if someone needs a luthier like that but isn't plugged into whatever network or circle or whatever your guy travels in?

I have no particular interest, this is no issue for me, I don't live in your state and most likely never will. It's just if there is someone out there that's that good, well, folks like to know about it. But if he, and others like Jeff, prefer to stay under the radar, that's their business for sure. Again, no offense intended. My apologies.

No offense taken Don. It's just that my experience in finding this gentleman didn't seem weird to me. I really don't know "why" He doesn't put himself "out there," so to speak. He was highly recommended to me by someone I know personally that knows him. Perhaps he likes to choose his customers? If so, I'm honored. Frankly, I was surprised he even took the job, but I did tell him about the saga concerning this instrument. Perhaps he felt sorry for me? Don, he IS a resource to the mandolin community - just not here. He teaches, he builds, and obviously repairs as well.

I am now also convinced that a lot happens outside these Internet walls - more now than ever. When I first started playing, I would come here for just about everything, and a huge resource this cafe is! Little by little though, I am seeing some curtains open and learning that many things happen in the world of mandolins that are not discussed on the forums for, perhaps again, a variety of reasons.

[sunburst]

...Threet Guitars was THE place when I lived in Alberta...

There's an example right there. How many people here are familiar with Judy Threet? A first class luthier by any standard.

[Tom Haywood]

Posting this because I agree with John that it is easy enough to build in a truss rod slot that allows for a decent adjustment tool. I don't have any worries about this headstock being too thin.

[Tom Haywood]

Also, would like to hear Emmett's review after the setup. The luthier's earlier description shows that setups are a balance between a number of things, and rarely are a simple adjustment to one or two things.

[Jackgaryk]

Also, would like to hear Emmett's review after the setup. The luthier's earlier description shows that setups are a balance between a number of things, and rarely are a simple adjustment to one or two things.

yeah im wanting to hear from him too. poor ol' Emmett aint had a chance to bond with this mandolin since he bought it.

[Emmett Marshall]

yeah im wanting to hear from him too. poor ol' Emmett aint had a chance to bond with this mandolin since he bought it.

Hi Everybody! Sorry it has taken me this long to share with you about Arnold's latest surgery. I've had the mandolin back for about a week, but I've also been working 84 hours a week, so I didn't want to post the latest update until I had more playing time.

The luthier did a great job. He lowered the action big time. The bridge is no longer set at an extreme angle. It is so easy to play now! Would you believe he made a video for me of him doing the repair work? He talks while he does the work and explains what he is doing and why. This guy amazes me. He said that if I wasn't happy, to just send it back and he'll work on the setup again for FREE - plus shipping.

I couldn't be happier. After he leveled the frets, he did a very minimal crowning. He said that leaving them a bit flat would not only make them last longer, but also allowed him to make my action lower than about 90% of the mandolins out there. I know this much, I can slide a 1.4mm pick between the strings and fret #7 and it won't go anywhere. Now I understand why he works on instruments for the pros. There "are" little tricks.

At first, my "G" string still "buzzed," so I called him up with, "What the heck?" Then he said it didn't buzz for him and that it probably settled a bit after he did the work. Two turns of the nut on the bass side, and one turn on the treble side, and I'm up and running.

It's just my luck that as soon as the mandolin gets fixed, I get swamped with 80+ hours of work a week with no end in sight. The bright side is that I can start saving for a Danny Roberts F-5 Fern, and write soulful songs about being worn out from 16 hour shifts.

I know I've already said "thanks," but I'm gonna say it again anyway. Thanks to all who have tried to help me figure out what was wrong and get this baby singing.