Another new guy popping in with questions

[Kadmos]

Hi all, I've been an on again off again guitar player for years, (and violin, and tin whistle, ukelele, etc.) and now after a gift card to one of the big box guitar shops will be a mandolin owner tomorrow (they had to have it shipped in).

Anyway my understanding is this cheap one requires a bit of setup, shouldn't be too big of an issue, but it did make me wonder...

Does the mandolin have a strong 12th fret harmonic like a guitar?

Seems like it would be the easiest way to generally set the intonation.

Also, I'm wondering about picks...heavy? Light? Specially made for mandolin?

Not trying to ask everyone's favorite pick, just hoping to get a general sense if there is a specific genre of pick that might be better suited.

Feel free to offer up any other good to know advice before I hit the store tomorrow.

Thanks

[Chris W.]

Yes there is a 12th fret harmonic. My understanding is that, just like a guitar, you wan't the open string and the 12th fret harmonic to be as close to pitch as possible. Moving the bridge slightly fore or aft changes the intonation. My advice is to have your mando set up by someone who knows a thing or two about mandolins and not just a guitar guy. Playability and intonation are key to your enjoyment in the early stages.

As far as picks go there are almost as many preferences as there are players, but most (including me) prefer a thick pick 1mm or thicker (I use a 1.5mm). I find that it helps the strings to drive the top. But many others prefer thinner picks as well. Many shapes to choose from too. Some use the rounded corner of a typical teardrop pick, large triangles with a point, picks with rounded corners, or small jazz picks. Part of the fun on your mando journey is trying different ones to see what you like

Good luck,

CW

[Rodney Riley]

Short scale of the Mando, small tight strings. Harmonics aren't loud enuff to set the intonation. With my hearing anyway Best to use a tuner. Most Mando players like heavy 1.0 and larger pics. I'm using a 1.4 currently.

Welcome to the cafe and the wonderful world of these little beasts.

[Michael Bridges]

Check out Cafe member Rob Meldrum's E-book on setting up a mandolin. It's free, and he's done a great job of laying out why and how in an easy to follow manner. Shoot him an email at rob.meldrum@gmail.com, with mandolin setup in the subject line. He'll get you the latest version. Really a great service he's done for us!

[Kadmos]

Yes there is a 12th fret harmonic. My understanding is that, just like a guitar, you wan't the open string and the 12th fret harmonic to be as close to pitch as possible. Moving the bridge slightly fore or aft changes the intonation. My advice is to have your mando set up by someone who knows a thing or two about mandolins and not just a guitar guy. Playability and intonation are key to your enjoyment in the early stages.

Thanks, I've done a fair bit of work on guitars and violins, so I'd like to take a crack at it myself.

Pretty much any stringed instrument will produce a larger harmonic at the halfway point, with smaller ones at the 1/4 points, what I didn't know is if these harmonics line up with any particular fret.

For an unfretted instrument like a violin you place the bridge roughly between the inner "nicks" of the F-holes, and of course the intonation is simply wherever the note sounds true.

Knowing that harmonic is at the 12th fret means even with a taut, but untuned, string you can move the bridge to where that harmonic is right over the 12th fret, and basically be close enough...or close to close enough.

I hope that doesn't come across as "talking down", I'm mostly just trying to get this right in my head, and see if there were any bits I may not have thought of to save myself multiple trips to the store.

I will pick up some thicker picks

Thanks

[allenhopkins]

You're right about the 12th fret harmonic, but realize (not to be "talking down" either) that there's more to mandolin set-up than to most guitars; the bridge is not only "floating" (movable), but adjustable as to saddle height.

The other potential adjustment points include the nut, which needs to be slotted to the correct depth, the neck curvature ("relief"), adjustable with the truss rod, and the fit of the bridge feet to the top. Because of the mandolin's short scale and treble pitch, defects in set-up seem more noticeable.

Final issue to consider is that, since you're buying an inexpensive instrument, it probably will come not only un-set-up, but with cheap strings, which you might consider replacing. Restringing a mandolin can also be a task, because of the system of string loops around the tailpiece prongs (different and sometimes more annoying from ball-end guitar strings fitting into bridges or tailpieces).

If you check out some Cafe´threads on set-up, you'll find that quite a few first-time mandolin buyers find themselves fighting the factory "set-up" -- or lack thereof. Here's a current example. Rob Meldrum's e-book would be a good reference source in any case, for this or any future instrument.

Good luck and welcome aboard...

[JeffD]

All mandolins, cheap or expensive, could well need a set up.

Yes there is a 12th fret marker. The big difference is that guitars typically mark the 9th fret, while mandolins and things tuned in fifths mark the 10th fret.

Many mandolinners prefer a heavier pick. 1 mm to 1.5 mm seems popular. The deal is that for some reason (likely because its a smaller instrument with tighter strings) choice of pick seems to make a bigger difference on how the mandolin sounds, than with a guitar. Best to try a bunch and see what you like. This is not real important at the get go, but will be as you develop your own taste and expectations for mandolin tone and sound.

Enjoy. I predict a mandolin addiction coming. This is a great place to share your trauma.

[Kadmos]

Thanks guys, yeah it's a real cheap one, I don't even think this model has a truss rod. It's the Rogue RM-100A.

We do have a great local folk music shop here in St. Louis, so if I need to take it in for a setup that's not a problem.

My plan is to do an initial set up, just to get it basically playable, and decide if I can live with this model for at least the next year or so. If I decide not to, thankfully the place has a 30 day return policy, so I can upgrade if necessary.

That's a real good point on the strings Allen, are there any sort of reasonable priced "standard" type strings folks might recommend?

[Rodney Riley]

Check out Cafe member Rob Meldrum's E-book on setting up a mandolin. It's free, and he's done a great job of laying out why and how in an easy to follow manner. Shoot him an email at rob.meldrum@gmail.com, with mandolin setup in the subject line. He'll get you the latest version. Really a great service he's done for us!

Rob's eBook makes it easy and explains how to do a set-up yourself. Email him, it's free. The best money you will ever spend to familiarize yourself with a mandolin set-up.

[Alex Orr]

I think you might be right about the lack of an adjustable truss rod. If that's the case, I'll also suggest that you take it to someone who knows a bit about mandolins and set-ups. The quality control for those Rogues can be inconsistent, and as such, you might want to get someone's opinion about any possible neck warping or excessive bowing that might necessitate sending it back. Also, you'll want someone to take a look at the frets which could use some leveling.

Experiment with different picks and see what you like. I will say that heavier is better simply because you have eight strings at higher tension than on a guitar, and as such, you need a pick with more heft to provide a stronger attack.

Completely unsolicited, but my suggestion about learning is to first watch Mike Marshall's first Fundamentals DVD and then start on Greg Horne's beginning mandolin book.

[allenhopkins]

...That's a real good point on the strings Allen, are there any sort of reasonable priced "standard" type strings folks might recommend?

D'Addario J74 mediums, .011-.040, seem to be a favorite; they come in a variety of sub-types, including flat-wound, "flat top," stainless steel, etc. at various prices, but the basic set can be obtained from on-line discounters at less than $5.00.

[Kadmos]

D'Addario J74 mediums, .011-.040, seem to be a favorite; they come in a variety of sub-types, including flat-wound, "flat top," stainless steel, etc. at various prices, but the basic set can be obtained from on-line discounters at less than $5.00.

Thanks, excellent to hear, I use D'Addario on guitar and violin.

[Tobin]

On the subject of harmonics, I think it's pretty pointless using the 12th fret harmonics for anything in the way of intonation setup. You're always going to get an octave harmonic at the halfway point of the string, whether the bridge is where it ought to be or not. So it doesn't tell you anything useful. Even if you try to move the bridge so that your harmonic occurs exactly over the 12th fret, it still won't do anything useful for you in terms of setting intonation exactly where you need it. All it will do is get you close.

When adjusting intonation, you need to do it using the 12th fret note when fretted, not using the harmonic. This is due to the fact that, depending on your action height, you will be bending the string sharp to fret it. It does you no good to position your bridge perfectly for a harmonic at the 12th fret if that note is going to be sharp when you fret it at the 12th fret. So just use the fretted note for setting intonation.

Honestly, the best use I've found for 12th fret harmonics (aside from cool effects when playing) is to check the tuning of open strings. Not intonation, mind, but just checking the unison of each course. It makes it easier to dial them in by ear to each other if I check the harmonics instead of just playing the open strings.

[Mandoplumb]

I've always used the harmonic against the 12th fret noted. If it is the same note you're about as close as you're gonna get.

[Kadmos]

On the subject of harmonics, I think it's pretty pointless using the 12th fret harmonics for anything in the way of intonation setup. You're always going to get an octave harmonic at the halfway point of the string, whether the bridge is where it ought to be or not. So it doesn't tell you anything useful. Even if you try to move the bridge so that your harmonic occurs exactly over the 12th fret, it still won't do anything useful for you in terms of setting intonation exactly where you need it. All it will do is get you close.

Not to come off as argumentative, but it seems to me that it would be rather useful to know about that 12th fret harmonic. As you say the octave harmonic will be at the halfway point, so even with one taut string not even tuned you should be able to find the general bridge position area using the harmonic.

For instance if you get that harmonic at the 10th fret then the bridge would be too close to the nut, at the 15th it would be too far.

While as you say it likely won't be perfect, due to the bending when fretted, but at least we're talking millimeters off, not inches.

[Tobin]

I don't disagree, Kadmos. It's generally useful to get you in the ballpark, but I just find that using the harmonic for bridge placement doesn't offer anything that a fretting at the 12th fret doesn't. It actually introduces error, where using a fretted string doesn't.

[Kadmos]

I don't disagree, Kadmos. It's generally useful to get you in the ballpark, but I just find that using the harmonic for bridge placement doesn't offer anything that a fretting at the 12th fret doesn't. It actually introduces error, where using a fretted string doesn't.

Understood, my concern was looking at various pictures of mandolins and not knowing how they are braced, but knowing the string tension must be fairly high, it might be possible to do serious damage with wildly bad bridge placement.

On a guitar it's a fixed bridge, sure some are adjustable for intonation, but it's glued or screwed in place. On a violin, as long as the sound post is in place then using the inside nicks of the F-holes is a safe general placement for the bridge.

But on a mandolin, it may not even have F-holes, and there is no reason for me to assume they have any correspondence to bridge placement. For those with a round sound hole there are several inches of open space of possible bridge placement. Some of which may not be able to support the bridge under tension.

Knowing that 12 fret has the harmonic lets me know in initial setup that the bridge should be equidistant from the 12th fret as the 12th fret is from the nut.

Yes it only gets me into the ballpark, but the big thing is it lets me know that general area of placement is safe for the instrument to handle the tension.

Many violins have been seriously damaged by someone placing the bridge off by an inch or more, resulting in the sound post bursting the top or back.

I just didn't want to make a potentially damaging assumption that the 12th fret was the halfway mark.

It's one of those things where a little bit of knowledge can be dangerous, I would have felt like a fool if I damaged the instrument with that assumption, only to have everyone be like "Duh, the 18th fret is the halfway point, what were you thinking!?"

[Randi Gormley]

Hi, Kadmos, welcome to the café! You didn't mention what kind of music you would like to play -- while any pick will work, sometimes the pick width, formation and heft is different for different kinds of music. Usually, people who play bluegrass like a thick pick while people who play classical or ITM like a thinner pick. And individual instruments respond to different picks in ways you wouldn't believe until you try a side-by-side comparison. so have at. (I personally use a medium-weight tiny jazz pick. I can't make any sound at all with the big thick ones -- my mandolins sound muffled).

Actually, what I wanted to point out was that, intonation aside, the Rogue I owned needed its nut cut down by about half. You may not be interested in Rob's book to set your intonation, but you won't go wrong using it to set string height and suchlike. Especially with a cheaper instrument, factory-fresh usually means it's not optimally set up to be used out of the box. The chances are the strings are way too high even if the bridge is properly placed (and it won't be properly placed). Just a word to the wise.

Since you play more than one instrument, you're aware that different instruments use different techniques. Mandolin is not played like guitar except in the larger sense of being able to fret chords and play melody. It's fretted much more like you fret your violin, at that specific angle, instead of the angle you fret your guitar. And it's two frets per finger, so in that case it's much more like the violin than guitar.

Welcome to the journey -- it's a great trip any way you make it!

[David L]

I don't disagree, Kadmos. It's generally useful to get you in the ballpark, but I just find that using the harmonic for bridge placement doesn't offer anything that a fretting at the 12th fret doesn't. It actually introduces error, where using a fretted string doesn't.

The idea is to use BOTH the harmonic and the 12th fret. You compare the two and move the bridge accordingly. That takes the string depression into account.

[Kadmos]

Thanks Randi, I sent off an Email to Mr. Meldrum with the request.

For guitar I mostly use picks based on comfort and grip, with sound being much more secondary. Sounds like the choice for mandolin might be more of a quest, but hopefully a happy one. I really appreciate the advice on finger angle. I have the feeling I'll be going through a few dozen basic mandolin videos on youtube in the next week. I'll probably also see if there is a "mandolin for dummies" book. The title is always a bit embarrassing, but the books tend to be so well written in that series

[Isaac Revard]

Enjoy the mandolin! The best one is your own.

Mandolin for Dummies is awesome.
Here are some good videos posted by Don Julin (the author) on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUCH...8C93CC4E19F70A

Zak Borden has some good videos too. And since you already play a few instruments, you might enjoy his chord building series: https://www.youtube.com/user/songszak8

[Tobin]

The idea is to use BOTH the harmonic and the 12th fret. You compare the two and move the bridge accordingly. That takes the string depression into account.

OK, I know this is what everyone believes, and I don't mean to over-analyze things (or seem argumentative, LOL), but the only thing the harmonic gives you is a chiming note an octave above the open string, regardless of bridge placement. Because of the fact that you have to gently touch the string without any real firm contact, it's not even very useful for determining whether your exact finger placement is directly over the 12th fret or not (I don't know about you, but my eyeball isn't very good at seeing where my rounded finger actually touched the string, and then projecting that down to the fretboard). It will get you in the ballpark, but it's not a measurable way of telling you how far off the bridge is.

The harmonic actually will not occur exactly over the 12th fret. You know how bridges are set slightly out-of-parallel with the frets, and they are compensated for each string? This means that not all string lengths are the same, and mathematically they do not all have the same midpoint. These are built-in adjustments for action height and string gauge and intended pitch. The harmonic will be "close to" the 12th fret, but never exactly on it. So why bother comparing it to the fretted note? It's only distracting us from the goal.

We want to set intonation so that it's correct when fretting notes, right? All we have to do is set and adjust the bridge so that the fretted note is correct, and that's all we need. It will not lie. The fret is in a fixed location, and is our reference for the octave of that string. Where the harmonic occurs is pretty irrelevant to this process.

I guess my point is this: You can correctly set intonation using only fretted notes. You cannot correctly set intonation using only harmonics. The harmonics don't really add anything measurable to the process. They're fun to play with, and the harmonic should generally converge with the 12th fret, but what can it possibly tell you about proper bridge placement that the fretted note cannot? I don't see any value in comparing the two, as it is the fretted note that governs here.

[Kadmos]

I gotta agree with Tobin on that. The harmonic is great for getting the general sense of intonation for initial setup, but comparing the harmonic and actual correct fretted intonation might drive you crazy. I don't think it's even possible to get them to really match.

In other news, I went to pick it up. Before telling them I was picking one up I decided to browse. As it turns out the store was doing a closeout on an Ibanez M510, already set up and ready to go for $99. Salesman walked over, I explained the situation, he brought out the Rogue and we did a bit of comparing, chatting, and he showed me a few chords.

He was totally no pressure about it, and I left with the Ibanez (more than anything I just liked the neck much better).

I want to thank you guys for the great advice and interesting conversation.

I got a variety pack of picks, haven't gotten to that yet, actually been using the side of my thumb...which I may want to stop doing before I tear it to shreds.

Anyway, looking forward to more great conversation, thanks all for being so welcoming!

[Mandoplumb]

The noted 12fret is the octive, the harmonic is the octive if you make them the same note ( which is really simple ) your intonation is as close as you're going to get it. Agree that the correction in the bridge may not be perfect for the strings that are on it but that is the same however you set intonation. Those of us that was setting intonation before cheap electronic tuners used this method and I don't see the tuners improving it.

[David L]

OK, I know this is what everyone believes, and I don't mean to over-analyze things (or seem argumentative, LOL), but the only thing the harmonic gives you is a chiming note an octave above the open string, regardless of bridge placement. Because of the fact that you have to gently touch the string without any real firm contact, it's not even very useful for determining whether your exact finger placement is directly over the 12th fret or not (I don't know about you, but my eyeball isn't very good at seeing where my rounded finger actually touched the string, and then projecting that down to the fretboard). It will get you in the ballpark, but it's not a measurable way of telling you how far off the bridge is.

The harmonic actually will not occur exactly over the 12th fret. You know how bridges are set slightly out-of-parallel with the frets, and they are compensated for each string? This means that not all string lengths are the same, and mathematically they do not all have the same midpoint. These are built-in adjustments for action height and string gauge and intended pitch. The harmonic will be "close to" the 12th fret, but never exactly on it. So why bother comparing it to the fretted note? It's only distracting us from the goal.

We want to set intonation so that it's correct when fretting notes, right? All we have to do is set and adjust the bridge so that the fretted note is correct, and that's all we need. It will not lie. The fret is in a fixed location, and is our reference for the octave of that string. Where the harmonic occurs is pretty irrelevant to this process.

I guess my point is this: You can correctly set intonation using only fretted notes. You cannot correctly set intonation using only harmonics. The harmonics don't really add anything measurable to the process. They're fun to play with, and the harmonic should generally converge with the 12th fret, but what can it possibly tell you about proper bridge placement that the fretted note cannot? I don't see any value in comparing the two, as it is the fretted note that governs here.

Again, no one ever said to just use the harmonics. You don't use the harmonic to sight where to put the bridge. (That IS silly) You LISTEN to the harmonic and the fretted note and get them in tune. When you say that you can use just the fretted note to set the bridge, are you comparing the fretted note to the open note or to an electronic tuner? Either way, you're not using only the fretted note.