Cut and fit neck dovetail by hand

[Dick Hutchings]

Does anyone do this? I've fit 3 using the bandsaw method and it's always been a long and painful process for me. Looking ahead at building an A1 trying to keep things simple, I'd like to get the neck joint simplified. I'm pretty good with hand tools and I think I'd feel better about it if I could have accurate layout lines to work to instead of relying on a bandsaw jig. I'm open to non-dovetail solutions as well. As I said in another thread, I really want to complete some mandolins and not spend a lot of time on things that don't matter, like scrolls.

[Jim Hilburn]

I don't do it but I don't see why you couldn't. Use a jig saw (bow saw?) for the curved cuts and a fret saw for the straight. A power scroll saw should work too.

[Dick Hutchings]

This has always been a show stopper, slow-downer for me. Maybe I should take the advice given many time here. Practice on scrap. I think I'll do this before I even start my next mandolin. A bunch of 2 Xs should be sufficient.

[swampy]

Perhaps a straight violin style joint like a Campanella?

[Dick Hutchings]

I've been thinking about the Siminoff joint. I've never tried it but it looks pretty simple compared to the dovetail. I don't know what the Campanella joint looks like but if doesn't include button as part of the back then I wouldn't want to go down that path. To me, the button is a major part of keeping the neck from pulling up. Maybe a combination of butt joint with the button would be sufficient. Works for fiddles.

[fscotte]

I use bandsaw.

The cut to the headblock doesn't have to be precise, just make it even and make it centered as good as you can. I mark the cut with pencil and then simply cut the lines out with the bandsaw.

Then use that cut as the outline for the cut you'll make into the neck.

When I cut the joint on the neck, I cut almost to the line but just leave a space of wood there. Very tiny amount. Then I use sandpaper and other hand tools to sand away the wood right up to the line. So essentially, use the bandsaw to get rid of most of the wood, and then handtols to fine tune it.

[bernabe]

+1 on staying outside the lines on both the neck and the block cuts. Just leave plenty of wood and leave the heel taller than you need so you can get things lined up and worked out correctly, top to bottom, prior to sinking it all the way. It gives you more time [more height] to fiddle with it because your not going to reach your proper height as fast as leaving minimal wood and the heel shorter. That is if a compound DT is what you're contemplating. My .02$

[sunburst]

I cut my dovetails by hand using a dovetail saw (surprise, surprise), a coping saw, chisels, knives, files, etc. until the fit is satisfactory. I spend more time laying out and marking for the cuts than anything else up until final fitting (the slow part of any dovetail joint). Perhaps one day I'll make templates to trace the cuts and speed up the lay-out process.
Center line, "Roll, pitch and yaw". Keep those in mind and evaluate how every move you make will effect all of those, and after a few dovetails, it will get easier.

[Dick Hutchings]

You all seem to want to keep me doing a dovetail, at least most of you. I'll try a bunch of neck and blocks from construction lumber and see if I can get any better at it. Thanks.

John, that is the way I would prefer to learn this. Hand tools all the way. Tired of making dust and noise when I don't have to. I have a much better collection of hand tools since my last build, I don't even remember how long ago.

[swampy]

can't delete

[Dick Hutchings]

BTW, I'm really pleased to see all of the folks I relied on in my first 3 builds are still here. What a great bunch of builders.

[swampy]

I'm with John on this one. I use handtools for everything, but then again I don't build mandolins. The layout is the most crucial. I learned to slowly work it to the line and only take the smallest of shavings when fitting it in the end. For clarification, Campanella's neck joint is just like a violin (I believe) A straight mortise and tenon with a back button.


http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ght=campanella

Neck joint is shown at near the bottom of the page.

[sunburst]

You all seem to want to keep me doing a dovetail, at least most of you.

I wouldn't presume to tell anyone how they should do things or what joint to use, but there is no reason that you can't master the process of fitting dovetails if that is the joint you want to use. Otherwise, any appropriate joint, well designed and well fit, will work fine, and there are plenty of examples to support that.

As for using hand tools, the final fit is almost always done using hand tools, and that is the slow part of the process, as I said before. There is no structural reason not to use power tools for the initial cuts - neither the wood nor any observer of the joint will be able to tell what tools were used to make those cuts if the joint is the same when it's done.
It doesn't take long at all to make the initial cuts of the dovetail, mortise and tenon, using hand tools, so using power tools instead only serves to speed up the fast part of the process anyway, as I see it. We all have our reasons for choosing one method over another, but in this case, choosing power tools (and jigs) is more of a way to make the process consistent, repeatable, predictable and reliable than it is a way to speed it up.
As you mention, power tools make loud noise and sling dust. Hand tools make dust too, but they don't sling it into the air and the noise is much more pleasant to me, and since the hand tool process is nearly as fast, those are reasons enough for me.

[Stephen Perry]

A general technique that is useful is to build surface test gauges. Flat or curved surfaces that are absolutely true, and may have other dimensional information. I have one, for example, for testing the flatness of the big surface of the mortise for violin neck fitting. It also has marks to get me close to overstand and projection. I chalk or otherwise mark (charcoal drawing pencil is good) the gauge, carefully fit in and press, carefully remove, and then remove the high spots. My final fit is with stiff straight scraper and a fair amount of look and feel. Seems to work nicely. Can generate angle and other gauges that work by chalk or light shining through.

One tool I find helpful is a cheap cutoff saw. Has no set on one side, gives exceptionally clean cut.

I have to emphasize that getting things sharp and keeping them sharp is important. I constantly touch up on a piece of maple coated in green compound. Also, maple cuts cigarette paper thin or less when wet. When I'm arching a violin back, I have a spray bottle of water and a block of paraffin wax. The wax on the gouge and the water on the back keep things zinging alon.

[j. condino]

Cutting dovetails bay hand used to take me a LOOOONG time to get the fit correct and it was always a frustrating task trying to balance two independent variables. Sometime this year there will be an article in American Lutherie magazine covering the workshop that Andrew Mowry and I gave last year at the Guild of American Luthiers convention. It will have a feature that shows the new dovetail jigs I'm currently using that turn the whole process into an easy 12 minute job with very accurate, repeatable results. I'm working on a commercial release of the jigs with a known company, so I'll hold off on the photos, but anyone is welcome to visit and see them in person. I'll also have the same setup with me for my workshops at the upcoming Assosciation of Stringed Instrument Artisans symposium in East Stroudsburg, Pa. this June to show folks. John Hamlett and many other good folks will also be there.

The real trick to getting any joint to work well is to make a lot of them. No mater what design, they all take time to master. Before you ever touch the nice working wood, make a dozen practice ones. Good luck.

j.
www.condino.com

[GaryTimmons]

Hi Richard,
I've used several different methods for joining necks. I took on the challenge of a compound dovetail because it just looked so damn cool. I've done a lot of different joinery over the years working on boats but that particular dovetail was really difficult for me to implement.

Peter Coombe shows on his website http://www.petercoombe.com/Neck_and_dovetail.htm the method he uses. I’m grateful for the help of so many builders that have so freely published on the internet. The joint that Siminoff uses seems a bit bland compared to other joints but it does hold. I’ve used it several times and I’m considering it again because does take less time.

I used to practice my joints on scraps before I would commit to cutting into my instruments. Like in any wood working tight joints last longer. All the joints can be challenging. Patience, practice and experience always seems to be the way it works.

Good luck and have fun. ---Gary

[Dick Hutchings]

To Swampy and the Campanello link.
That mando looks awesome. Thanks for the link and another perspective for attaching a neck.

[Richard58]

Kind of like building a violin. For me cutting the scroll is always the hardest part of making a violin. The body is the easy part for me.

[David Houchens]

Here is a two stage jig I built several years ago. The top piece that's holding the neck is set at an angle and can be used by itself to angle the end of the neck and cutting the curved face that butts the body. The pivoting table allows tilting of the body and the neck for cutting the tapered tenon and the mortise. I went back to doing them by hand for a while but may do my next one with the jig. This jig was built for doing tapered dovetail joints but can be set up for a straight/tapered joint. Both jigs are adjustable.

[Capt. E]

Take a look at this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibyTMTLjaq8

It basically requires good saws, good chisels, and knowing how to use them. A good jig is very helpful as well.

I love working with hand tools and have done a lot of dovetails in furniture. Never done an instrument neck, but the principals are the same. The mandolin neck is, of course, a form of a blind dovetail.

[fscotte]

Here is a two stage jig I built several years ago. The top piece that's holding the neck is set at an angle and can be used by itself to angle the end of the neck and cutting the curved face that butts the body. The pivoting table allows tilting of the body and the neck for cutting the tapered tenon and the mortise. I went back to doing them by hand for a while but may do my next one with the jig. This jig was built for doing tapered dovetail joints but can be set up for a straight/tapered joint. Both jigs are adjustable.

Hey bryce why do you have the body at an angle as well? Is that something that style of joint requires?

[David Houchens]

fscotte, Doing the body and the neck on the same jig was just an easy way to get the tapers in the body and the neck the same angle. I leave the bandsaw set to 90 degrees. It was more consistent for me. When I do dovetail joints it a tapered joint so it does the same on them as well.
Everything is still at the mercy of it being aligned on the jig well.

[David Houchens]

Also, the final fit is still the most critical part. I generally over think things and enjoy making jigs. I have a bunch of ideas fo other jigs but too little time. But still I really enjoy knowing the "no power tool" way as well. Its not as production oriented maybe, but its a lot more fun.

[Pete Jenner]

Take a look at this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibyTMTLjaq8

While that's a very good video for cutting furniture dovetails, it has no relevance for cutting mandolin neck compound dovetail joints. At one point, Mr Smooth talks about hiding any 'errant' cuts on the inside. Well 'errant' cuts are not an option in joints that have to withstand the forces that mandolin neck joints have to withstand.

Laying out and cutting are, IMO, easily mastered once you have got your head around the geometry and have worked out your technique but fitting is quite another story and I sometimes wonder if I'll ever master it.

[David Houchens]

Yep. The dovetail itself doesn't give me too much trouble on its own. Its getting it fit and lock against the curve of the body at the right point that gets me. I seem to get one side right, but then there's a gap on the other side.Kinda like trimming my mustache, back and forth. I need to be more sneaky in sneaking up on it I guess.