Mando sheet music database

[Joe Bartl]

A year ago I retired from music cataloging at the Library of Congress. I have continued to work as a volunteer one day a week. As a volunteer, I pretty much get to choose what I catalog. As a mando player, naturally, I now focus exclusively on LC's trove of uncataloged mandolin sheet music. In the process, I have created an Access database of the items I catalog. This database contains only the bibliographic info, of course, NOT digitized images of the sheet music. Per a suggestion from Paul Oorts, I started this project working with sheet music for mandolin trios (2 mandos & guitar). As might have been expected, virtually everything I'm cataloging is circa turn of the previous century, say 1890-1920. While there is some original music, much of the material consists of arrangements of songs and light classical music popular at that time. Thus far, I have gotten through about two hundred pieces -- which doesn't sound terribly productive, but identifying composers and arrangers from that period can be time consuming. I would like to make this data available for those who may be interested and am wondering what the best avenue of this might be? -- Thanks for your interest. --> Giogio

[Gary Leonard]

However you would want to provide the data would work, access database, excel file, csv data. I would be interested in the data, and could even participate in offering the data to others in some easily accessible manner (say a web page, I am a web application developer. ).

I would be more interested in providing the ability to link actual sheet music to the songs, provided of course the music is public domain, or not copyrighted.

[zedmando]

I'll second that--public domain stuff would be cool to have access to.

[Tobin]

I'm no legal expert, but music from that era wouldn't still be protected by any copyright, would it? Don't they have expiration dates like patents?

[mandroid]

Seems publishers of popular Country music songs Renew Copyright for reprinting as on the page.
saying so on the bottom of the page
one may find a search interesting

I read somewhere the Copyright to the "Happy Birthday" Song keeps being renewed,

but only in for profit and having made big bucks off it would that be worth a Lawsuit.
I dont think that branch of law is done on a contingency % no money down basis like personal injury suits.

[Jim Garber]

Sheri Mignano has made available quite a bit of Italian-American music including music for mandolin/guitar and for accordion. It is discussed and linked to here.

I have a rather large collection of turn-of-the-last century sheet music of various genres. Giogio, I assume that some of the ones you are cataloging are ragtime and parlor music and pop music of the day?

[Joe Bartl]

Thanks for the responses. First, regarding copyright, the rule of thumb is that anything published before 1923, including sheet music, is in the public domain. Second, though I'd like to be able to offer scans of the music, the time involved in creating the scans would defeat my main purpose -- which is to simply let mandophiliacs know what is available at the Library of Congress (as Joshua Bell did in a limited way with his print publication "Mandolin Music in America"). Who knows? Once I produce a critical mass of bibliographic data (required for scanning projects), perhaps I'll be able to tempt the Library into creating a mandolin page with scans? Third, I appreciated the pointer to the Sheri Mignano material ... though many of the links simply didn't work for me. Fourth, the music is as I described it; thus far, there is not a lot of variety or range, and I haven't gotten as far (chronologically) as ragtime. I expect that as I progress into other realms (solo, duos, quartets, etc.) I'll hit more and later material. Fifth, I wonder if it might be better for me to simply hold off any public sharing until my database contains a broader, more substantial offering? And, in the end, knowing that people want tangible music, not bibliographies, I wonder if this whole project may be off base ...

[Jim Garber]

Assuming this list is made available, what is the procedure to access the actual music from LOC?

[Tobin]

Second, though I'd like to be able to offer scans of the music, the time involved in creating the scans would defeat my main purpose -- which is to simply let mandophiliacs know what is available at the Library of Congress (as Joshua Bell did in a limited way with his print publication "Mandolin Music in America"). Who knows? Once I produce a critical mass of bibliographic data (required for scanning projects), perhaps I'll be able to tempt the Library into creating a mandolin page with scans?

Fifth, I wonder if it might be better for me to simply hold off any public sharing until my database contains a broader, more substantial offering? And, in the end, knowing that people want tangible music, not bibliographies, I wonder if this whole project may be off base ...

Well... what did you expect?! Did you think you were just going to be able to post that there was a bunch of cool old music in the Library of Congress, and we wouldn't want to see it? Telling us it's there but that it's inaccessible is just cruel, man. What good are bibliographies to mandolin players if we can't actually get to the music?

[August Watters]

Well, to me, I'd rather see your expertise used in the best way possible. You know your way around the archives, and you understand what needs to be done to discover what's there and how to make it accessible. If the job is way bigger than one person can do, then maybe another volunteer on this list who is able will take on the scanning and uploading? Meanwhile, the rest of us will have a more complete idea of what this resource has to offer, and we can check it out while we're visiting the DC area.

Seems like there's a lot of music out there to be recovered! I also have two big boxes of mandolin ensemble sheet music from the 1890s, lovingly preserved. One of these days. . . .

[Martin Jonas]

Well, to me, I'd rather see your expertise used in the best way possible. You know your way around the archives, and you understand what needs to be done to discover what's there and how to make it accessible. If the job is way bigger than one person can do, then maybe another volunteer on this list who is able will take on the scanning and uploading? Meanwhile, the rest of us will have a more complete idea of what this resource has to offer, and we can check it out while we're visiting the DC area.

Seems like there's a lot of music out there to be recovered! I also have two big boxes of mandolin ensemble sheet music from the 1890s, lovingly preserved. One of these days. . . .

There certainly is a lot of old public domain music out there, and I relish in browsing through what I have (the Nakano archive, the scans posted by Sheri and other similar online collections, a few boxes of old mandolin orchestra material our ensemble has inherited from local predecessors, and a fair number of scattered scans collected all over the web), trying out what sounds promising and where possible record it -- however amateurishly -- to make the transition from dead paper to live music.

From this background, I find online archive catalogues without download links somewhat frustrating. There are a number of them out there (Paul Oort's own page as well as web-based indexes of various Japanese and European mandolin orchestra archives). They are fine when you are a professional scholar, know what pieces you're interested in and can make an interlibrary loan or even a special trip to Washington as part of your research work. However, for the most part the titles and composers of these pieces are forgotten in the mists of time. The only way of findings out what's good and what's dross is by looking at the scores and trying out what looks promising. An index alone, unfortunately, is tantalisting but ultimately a dead end. You can't do an interlibrary loan for a few thousand scores to pull out the few dozen that are worthwhile.

Of course, having a list as a first stepping stone of what's at the LOC is better than not knowing, and if as August has suggested some brave soul steps up to do at least a start on actual scanning it can be a valuable seed for a larger online collection.

Martin

[Gary Leonard]

Thanks for the responses. .. Second, though I'd like to be able to offer scans of the music, the time involved in creating the scans would defeat my main purpose -- which is to simply let mandophiliacs know what is available at the Library of Congress (as Joshua Bell did in a limited way with his print publication "Mandolin Music in America"). Who knows? Once I produce a critical mass of bibliographic data (required for scanning projects), perhaps I'll be able to tempt the Library into creating a mandolin page with scans? Third, I appreciated the pointer to the Sheri Mignano material ... though many of the links simply didn't work for me. Fourth, the music is as I described it; thus far, there is not a lot of variety or range, and I haven't gotten as far (chronologically) as ragtime. I expect that as I progress into other realms (solo, duos, quartets, etc.) I'll hit more and later material. Fifth, I wonder if it might be better for me to simply hold off any public sharing until my database contains a broader, more substantial offering? And, in the end, knowing that people want tangible music, not bibliographies, I wonder if this whole project may be off base ...

Second, I wouldn't expect you or any single person to scan all that music. But if an entire community were involved, it could take on a Wiki like life, where the catalog could be available, and various links edited and maintained by anyone who is interested. Think of the Café tabs on steroids. Wouldn't it be cool to navigate to a page and see the sheet music rated by the community?

Is the LOC material available to the public at all?

Third, links quickly get outdated, and are not a great way to maintain a library. The bibliographic data is in a standard format I take it, so should the external data/links. Ultimately, a catalog of PDFs would be super, but links would also work, provided they are up to date. Again, with a variety of contributors would be able to maintain this (as any Wiki would and should have a variety of supporters taking care of it).

Fourth, There has to be a starting place, so why not your database? And I must ask, how many songs are we talking about in what you describe as ".. LC's trove of uncatalogued mandolin sheet music."

Fifth, If you wait for the "right time", will there ever be a right time? I kind of look at this like having a kid. If people always waited for the right time to have a kid, most people would be childless. This is your baby, take it to where you want to, and see what comes of it.

[Joe Bartl]

Martin Jonas writes: However, for the most part the titles and composers of these pieces are forgotten in the mists of time. The only way of finding out what's good and what's dross is by looking at the scores and trying out what looks promising. This is certainly true. However, separating the "good" from the "dross", however important that might be for those trying to augment their repertoire of historical gems, is not the point of what I'm trying to do with this database. Instead, the database attempts, albeit in a small way, to address the "mists of time" issue; the project attempts to open the window on an important period of U.S. mando history.

Gary writes: If an entire community were involved ... There has to be a starting place. Indeed, the database I am compiling is no more than a starting place. As for the eventual digitization of the scores, yes, it takes a village (sorry!). Perhaps as I continue down my little bibliographic lane (narrow but very, very long), a way of creating the needed community involvement will dawn on me. (If there are any volunteers in the DC area to help create the bibliographic data (or, possibly, to scan), let me know and I'll see what I can arrange.)

Gary also asks about quantity. This a an impossible question to answer. Though concentrated in a few specific class numbers (e.g., I'm currently working through trios in M365-M369) mando music is spread across the broad spectrum of the sheet music/score collections.

Regarding access to the the bibliographic data, you can find most of the records I've created in the Library of Congress online catalog (catalog.loc.gov) by searching plucked instrument trios mandolin. The difference between accessing these titles via the Library catalog and the database I'm creating is that the database will be sortable and scrollable in ways that the Library online catalog cannot match.

Regarding access to the actual scores, photocopies can be made and mailed by the Library (again, most of this stuff is in the public domain), but at a cost that rather discourages any but the most desperate of researchers. If you are in DC, of course, you can visit the Library and request the scores in the Performing Arts Reading Room.

I've appreciated all the responses you all have posted. This has gotten me to thinking a little more deeply about what I'm doing, and about how it relates to other mando sheet music online efforts. This is one of my retirement projects and, because I intend to live to 120, I do hope to get a lot done.

Giogio

[August Watters]

You can't do an interlibrary loan for a few thousand scores to pull out the few dozen that are worthwhile.

And there's the crux of the problem. There's likely to be a large percentage of music that's not worth remembering -- stuff that was cranked out to sell during a fad; music that's full of mistakes or was otherwise never good to begin with. So how do we find those few dozen musical needles that document the achievements of past generations, in the midst of such a haystack?

Seems like the first step is knowing where to look, no?

[DavidKOS]

There's likely to be a large percentage of music that's not worth remembering -- stuff that was cranked out to sell during a fad; music that's full of mistakes or was otherwise never good to begin with.

You say it well - and it is the real issue. So much of the material was not very remarkable nor worthwhile and has correctly been forgotten.

But there are a few overlooked gems, and the problem is how to find them?

[August Watters]

But there are a few overlooked gems, and the problem is how to find them?

It's a huge project. That's why I haven't dug more than an inch deep into the two boxes of 1890s mandolin music I have -- every piece deserves to be heard, and it takes time to listen to what the composer had to say. The impression I get from looking at this stuff is that much of it was composed for profit motive only; after all, selling sheet music was the center of the music industry at that time.

So all I can think of is getting more people interested in the project!