Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 51 to 74 of 74

Thread: Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;)

  1. #51
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Edmonds, WA
    Posts
    403

    Default Re: Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;

    I'm going to chime in with a brief observation. The first question to answer is this: do you want to play an instrument or do you want to become a proficient builder of instruments? If it is the latter you are int he right area. If it is the former, then here are my thoughts.
    1. Pick an instrument that is easy to learn and you can sing along as you play. If I were choosing a first instrument to learn as an adult beginner I would go with guitar, baritone ukulele, ukulele and mandolin, in that order of preference. The baritone uke plays like the top four strings of a guitar but has a smaller neck.

    2. Learn to play by taking lessons or sorting through the variety of youtube lessons and pick the ones that look best to you.

    3. Have fun.

    4. If you think a ukulele sounds shrill I'm not sure why you are looking to build a mandolin. :-)

  2. #52
    Registered User PT66's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Silvis, Illinios
    Posts
    254

    Default Re: Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;

    You have rejected the idea of buying a ready made instrument. Many people believe it would be cheaper to build something then to buy it. This is only true IF you count your time as free and IF you have all the necessary tools. I have thousands of dollars tied up in tools that I have purchased over the last 50 years. Just buying the right materials for this project would cost a couple hundred. Your plan has errors in it and you don't want to learn the design parameters for a playable instrument. Try this over at the Luthiers Forum and see if you get better results.
    Dave Schneider

  3. #53

    Default Re: Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;

    Quote Originally Posted by PT66 View Post
    Building a musical instrument is about art AND science. The baritone at Allen Guitars was a steel string instrument with a fixed bridge or electric. You can't build a workable instrument from mythology. I can recommend some reading but that take time.
    I accept what you are saying. Can you tell me why when I called and described what I was looking to make - an acoustic lute in my voice range, they recommended I get a fret board slotted using their service at this length and label: 27.750" Baritone. They could have sold me any length and instructed me that the label was about the instrument and not the range of notes comparable to the human voice. They did not need to mislead me. So, why would they do so?
    Quote Originally Posted by fscotte View Post
    Have you tried the banjo builders forum?
    I am familiar with four string African Banjos made from gourds. That certainly would correspond with the Law of Moses to build alters of uncut stone or earth lest by raising your tool upon it you mar the natural beauty thereof, however - it would not meet the parameters I set for using the Golden Section as the design parameter.
    Quote Originally Posted by fscotte View Post
    Occasioanlly people like this come around I guess. They feel the need to be someone they really aren't, as to be impressive or something.
    I stated what I needed. I was asked for the rest.
    I would in no way ever build this fella an instrument.
    Nor would I want you to since you are more concerned with denigrating others than promoting the good.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    Missouri luthiers
    Bookmarked.
    I do find your analysis, influences and dreams very interesting ...
    It is about the application of the Golden Section. The same formula that builds the rose, describes crystal, formations, decay ratios, the communications of bees, the paintings of DaVinci (he did that on purpose). In college I tested the proportions in presentations on papers. Those where I used the ratio to set the shape of my paragraphs and page, the size of my type, received higher marks than those that I typed straight out. It is hard wired not only into nature but into our nature.
    In a strange way, you want immediate gratification. Lots of contradictions here, in my way of thinking. To me the path to actually learn the skills and make this "perfect" instrument would be part of the joy of making it exist. Yes, it may take years, but you seem to feel pretty strongly about this project.
    It isn't quite immediate. I have been waylaid by life for several years now. This location was recommended to me by a Luthier out of Texas whose stuff I came across looking for help. And I used to have a processive personality, before I got married, bankrupt, divorced, and disabled. There is a lot of wonder for former things that isn't coming back. Just a fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Lindstrom View Post
    Interesting, if somewhat disjointed, history lesson. I believe you may have neglected to tell us about your personal motivations and why you want to build stringed instruments.
    For profane experience, space is homogenous and neutral; no break qualitatively differentiates the various parts of its mass. For religious man, space is not homogenous; he experience interruptions, breaks in it; some parts of the space are qualitatively different from others. The manifestation of the sacred ontologically founds the world. Religious man cannot live except in an atmosphere impregnated with the sacred. ~ Mircea Eliade

    You may be limiting yourself by restricting your interest to the insular world of mandolins.
    The mandolin and bouzouki families are the only thing around in volume that comes close to what I am attempting. Though both are generally made to be over complicated and given too much make-up. It is sort of like a Michael Angelo or a Picasso (in his red or blue period) - certainly worth their market, but not suited to my chicken coop.
    It is amusing that in an age prompting our individuality, we can all be just like everybody else. Like, it is hard to be Jewish in a town that only sells ham sandwiches. Like promising 319 million people they can all be president when they grow up, but really what are the odds of being that individuality? Just how many openings are there for that anyway? So we toss on this year's version of a Nehru jacket, 29" bells with leaves, butterflies, and flowers climbing the hem, dexter hiking boots, denim motoring cap, and biker wallet and march out to be different just like everybody else who bought their clothes at this year's version of Monkey Wards.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    ... with ordinary fingers.
    I have short wide fingers and short wide palms - at least compared to all the mass produced gloves and glove patterns. Which is why I have to crochet my own.
    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    I am going to guess you got precious little concrete guidance from either of these. I took a run at them, and found that while fascinating, they were both way more dense than they needed to be.
    Well, I wasn't trying to make concrete. I was calculating the expression of the sacred. As to what you would call concrete. I have found very little that was functionally to the point or entertainingly ethereal. Most was technical fluff in the form of pseudo-legal jargon that isn't really meant to say anything because committing to an actual statment might make someone blame you or more often it was a long description written by someone who felt they needed to write about what they did but were more accustomed to doing than writing and had absolutely no clue how to build successive phrases and clauses to a point.

  4. #54
    Registered User pit lenz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Cologne, Germany
    Posts
    194

    Default To all the guys that offered their help......

    Gentlemen, I truly admire your patience and good will to help this new fellow forumite.
    Guess I would have given up my positive spirit to help him "wrangle his demons" already.
    I'm curious to see, where this is going....

  5. #55
    F-style Apostate
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Tallahassee, FL
    Posts
    1,077

    Default Re: To all the guys that offered their help......

    Quote Originally Posted by pit lenz View Post
    Gentlemen, I truly admire your patience and good will to help this new fellow forumite.
    Guess I would have given up my positive spirit to help him "wrangle his demons" already.
    I'm curious to see, where this is going....
    It's been an interesting diversion, but I'm done until the OP quits dispensing academic techno-babble.

  6. #56

    Default Re: Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;

    I'm sure most of them are as frustrated with me as I am with most of them. However, a few here seem to actually get it. I kind of feel like the Fung-shue Architect trying to explain to the Foreman that planting evergreens on the north side of the house reduces heat loss and saves the homeowner money. But because it is something thousands of years old it just ain't right, can't work, and all that superstitious mojo is for crackpots.

    It's like the community I live in. While I was alderman I and the mayor put together the first library here in over 100 years. We did this completely on donations. Not one penny of tax payer money went into this. Not one government grant. Shelves were donated from private schools that were upgrading there equipment, books and equipment were donated from individuals and companies from coast to coast, locals purchased candy and soda to cover the cost of the paperwork. The electricity for the lights was $4.00/month. But we were thrown out of office because we were wasting tax payer money providing a place where kids could do something like read books instead of vandalize abandoned buildings. O, wait the library was in city hall which had to be open anyway, so we are still paying the $4.00/month for lights. So maybe we just hate people because they read books. Sorry, my late uncle was a librarian for the state of Illinois. My late aunt was a librarian and school teacher. My mother is a library technician. I'll take your hate because I am academic in my motivation, because I am guided by principles which are religious and live in a sacred world. After all, I was 9 years old before the extermination order on everyone of my religion was lifted in the state where I was born.

    Now, I explained what I was after. I gave the basic background for it. And you asked for the rest. Then you refused to accept it, denigrated me for it, and belittled me for thinking outside the prefabricated box. Goodbye.

  7. #57
    Butcherer of Songs Rob Zamites's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Holt, MI USA
    Posts
    735
    Blog Entries
    3

    Default Re: Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;

    And just to clarify OPs use of "1.414....." versus the Golden Ratio:

    1.414.... is the square root of two.
    1.6180339... is the Golden Ratio

    So OP isn't really clear on his maths either since neither has to do with the other. My first cittern, interestingly enough, was built by Brian Dean, and based on the Golden Ratio. And, like Rick, I'm done here.
    =============================
    Apollonio Acousto-electric bouzouki (in shop)
    Mixter 10 string mandola (still waiting 2+ yrs)
    Unknown brand Mandocaster (on the way!)
    =============================
    "Doubt begins only at the last frontiers of what is possible." -- Ambrose Bierce

  8. #58
    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    0.8 mpc from NGC224, upstairs
    Posts
    9,804

    Default Re: Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;

    If I understand the OP's requirements correctly, the cheapest approximation for him would be to buy a guitar, remove every other string and tune the remaining strings ad lib.

    That solution would bear no resemblance of a mandolin family instrument, but the search for such a resemblance may have caused much of the confusion, and may have been futile in the first place.

  9. #59
    Registered User fscotte's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Zanesville, Ohio
    Posts
    2,460

    Default Re: Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;

    A closed thread is a good thread.

  10. The following members say thank you to fscotte for this post:


  11. #60
    Resonate globally Pete Jenner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Mt Victoria, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    3,546
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;

    I'm going to miss him.
    The more I learn, the less I know.

    Peter Jenner
    Blackheathen

    Facebook

  12. #61
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    santa cruz CA.
    Posts
    29

    Default Re: Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;

    I think this is garbage! An educated man living in the outback no skills no car. When I was born on the island off N C we had few adminitys school was I=6 party line phone and travel to the main land for food What we didn't have we did without or made and there are lots of homemade instruments in the hills of Nc. I feel that if you really want something you find a way and not wine about what you can't do this guy has no clue!

  13. #62
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Westchester, NY
    Posts
    26,257

    Default Re: Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaqaliah View Post
    It is about the application of the Golden Section. The same formula that builds the rose, describes crystal, formations, decay ratios, the communications of bees, the paintings of DaVinci (he did that on purpose). In college I tested the proportions in presentations on papers. Those where I used the ratio to set the shape of my paragraphs and page, the size of my type, received higher marks than those that I typed straight out. It is hard wired not only into nature but into our nature.
    Perhaps/Maybe/Possibly this may be the luthier who understands what you are wanting. You may try contacting him to see if he would work with you and vice versa: Ray's Root Works

    Quote off his site:
    Unique design with shell-shape back or traditional flat back. Created in the shape of golden ratio (Fibonacci sequence).
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	$_57.JPG 
Views:	105 
Size:	106.3 KB 
ID:	131576

    Perhaps he can build you a fretted, three-string version of this one: The Root

    Jim

    My Stream on Soundcloud
    Facebook
    19th Century Tunes
    Playing lately:
    1923 Gibson A2 black snakehead -- '83 Flatiron A5-2 -- Brentrup A4C -- 1915 Frank Merwin Ashley violin -- Huss & Dalton DS -- 1939 Gibson L-00 -- 1936 Epiphone Deluxe -- 1928 Gibson L-5 -- 1937 Gibson L-Century -- ca. 1890s Fairbanks Senator Banjo -- ca. 1923 Vega Style M tenor banjo -- ca. 1920 Weymann Style 25 Mandolin-Banjo -- National RM-1

  14. #63
    Wood and Wire Perry Babasin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Roseville, California, United States
    Posts
    815

    Default Re: Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;

    Bizarro Padma
    ===================================
    ... I'm a California Man!

  15. #64
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Upstate New York
    Posts
    22,966
    Blog Entries
    52

    Default Re: Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaqaliah View Post
    a long description written by someone who felt they needed to write about what they did but were more accustomed to doing than writing and had absolutely no clue how to build successive phrases and clauses to a point.
    I think that is accurate. As a counter example, I remember Robert Graves "The White Goddess" and while it was similarly fascinating and similarly dense, the writing was compelling and the I really wanted to "get it".
    Indulge responsibly!

    The entire staff
    funny....

  16. #65
    Butcherer of Songs Rob Zamites's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Holt, MI USA
    Posts
    735
    Blog Entries
    3

    Default Re: Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;

    He's still watching this thread, FWIW.
    =============================
    Apollonio Acousto-electric bouzouki (in shop)
    Mixter 10 string mandola (still waiting 2+ yrs)
    Unknown brand Mandocaster (on the way!)
    =============================
    "Doubt begins only at the last frontiers of what is possible." -- Ambrose Bierce

  17. #66
    F-style Apostate
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Tallahassee, FL
    Posts
    1,077

    Default Re: Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;

    Actually, Da Padma might be just the guy to connect with him intellectually and spiritually and float his boat. So to speak.

  18. The following members say thank you to Rick Lindstrom for this post:


  19. #67
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Upstate New York
    Posts
    22,966
    Blog Entries
    52

    Default Re: Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Zamites View Post
    He's still watching this thread, FWIW.
    Aren't we all.

    I am hoping we are able to help him, or at least help him see whether or not we can help him.
    Indulge responsibly!

    The entire staff
    funny....

  20. #68
    Butcherer of Songs Rob Zamites's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Holt, MI USA
    Posts
    735
    Blog Entries
    3

    Default Re: Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;

    Well, he PM'd me to let me know that I could continue lying about him, basically. I think he needs more than a luthier, TBH, but everyone has their story, all of us included, and his doesn't concern me further.
    =============================
    Apollonio Acousto-electric bouzouki (in shop)
    Mixter 10 string mandola (still waiting 2+ yrs)
    Unknown brand Mandocaster (on the way!)
    =============================
    "Doubt begins only at the last frontiers of what is possible." -- Ambrose Bierce

  21. #69
    F-style Apostate
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Tallahassee, FL
    Posts
    1,077

    Default Re: Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;

    Well, I guess he actually warned us in the title to his post.....

  22. #70
    Butcherer of Songs Rob Zamites's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Holt, MI USA
    Posts
    735
    Blog Entries
    3

    Default Re: Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Lindstrom View Post
    Well, I guess he actually warned us in the title to his post.....
    Which part?

    =============================
    Apollonio Acousto-electric bouzouki (in shop)
    Mixter 10 string mandola (still waiting 2+ yrs)
    Unknown brand Mandocaster (on the way!)
    =============================
    "Doubt begins only at the last frontiers of what is possible." -- Ambrose Bierce

  23. #71
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    santa cruz CA.
    Posts
    29

    Default Re: Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;

    He Pm me also and talked about his doing the work of GOD. What A idiot lives in the outback has no skills probably doesn't eat meat walks in sandles and a robe and is building a cross somewhere. I'm a disabled vet -Dad was a preacher. I was kicked out of the church for going into the military trying to defend our way of life and lost interest in anything about the churches and his God while there, been careing metal in my body for over 45 years. and Yet people like him are walking upright wish he was here so isis could help him

  24. #72

    Default Re: Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;

    Can you tell me why when I called and described what I was looking to make - an acoustic lute in my voice range, they recommended I get a fret board slotted using their service at this length and label: 27.750" Baritone.
    Physics. With a stretched string, you need a certain length to produce a certain pitch efficiently. The best tone in the world is of little use if you don't have sufficient volume to be heard.
    I used the Golden Section to design some instruments while I was in college, but soon discovered that the application was purely arbitrary, and did not serve to make them better. I also used the cube root of two, with similar results.
    The reason I would not be interested in helping this cause is simple....it is too demanding, and the chance of a desirable outcome is small.
    I have found that it is sometimes easier to build it myself, rather than helping the helpless.
    This reminds me of the old adage.
    Shop rate:
    Basic: $50 per hour.
    If you watch: $75 per hour.
    If you help: $150 per hour.
    John

  25. #73
    Registered User PT66's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Silvis, Illinios
    Posts
    254

    Default Re: Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;

    I don't have a problem with the golden ratio thing. I thing a body that big would be hard to play. I think the sound hole is too small (I know that a balalaika has a small sound hole. Have you heard one?). If you are playing melodies you don't need 16 fret clear of the body ( as you go up the scale you move to the next string when you get to that note). Consider the guitarron. It has a short neck in order to place the bridge in the correct location. You can use a fixed bridge like a flat top guitar for any number of strings there by no need for tailpiece. The three factors that control the pitch of a string are length, mass and tension. If you make a string heavier you can make it shorter and get the same pitch (within limits). The G string on a guitar and the G string on a mandolin are the same pitch with the guitar scale being nearly twice the length.
    You said there are no luthiers near by and a carpenter refused to help. May I suggest a cabinet maker. The would have more of the right tools.
    Dave Schneider

  26. #74
    Registered User PT66's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Silvis, Illinios
    Posts
    254

    Default Re: Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;

    http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...=double+octave this thread is about an "out of the box" project I did.
    Dave Schneider

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •