Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 74

Thread: Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;)

  1. #1

    Default Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;)

    Ok. A few yarns ago, I somehow got the bug for music. I kind of liked this stuff I heard but wanted to hear it this way. And then there was this other thing that was so simple and light and ethereal, and that would be really really cool. And then there was this other thing that was perfect for supporting MY vocal range because it was a bass and I am a baritone. And then there was this kit that was for a three stringed instrument that was really easy to build but it was all the wrong everything else - but I built one just to see how it was done. And then I took some notes and I got out my ruler, and I bought a compass, and a pad, and a pencil, and a protractor, and I read a book, and I accessed an internet, and I listened to videos, and I, and I, and, and, and, ..... NOW!

    I have this design, sooooooo. I bought some wood, and some parts, and some glue, and some - wow that equipment is expensive - did you know how expensive that equipment is - and I attempted some things by hand - and did you know how bad you can really screw up a piece of wood by hand (tries to put piece back on, looks at ground, looks at piece again, looks like Charlie Brown, looks at ground) ..... &$#@!

    I am going to make someone angry here. I don't like guitars. The are to big for my reach. I don't like Ukuleles. They are too shrill. I don't like courses that is just so redundant. I don't like bowed instruments as I don't want to go through the torturing cats phase. I don't like electric because they are too electric. I don't like too many strings. I don't like reverb. I don't like buzz. I don't like ping. And I don't want my instruments to look like they are dressed up to help Vice squad make arrests on Friday night. But don't get me wrong - I have seen other people use these things to gorgeous effect, as real artists. That just ain't me.

    There is nothing available for me in kits to assemble and get what I want. There is nothing available that is what I want. There is no one where I live who can help me do what I want. I have proved to myself I can't do what I want on my own. Now the question is: Is there someone out there with which I can collaborate to do what I want?

    I can lay a blanket on the porch and use sandpaper. I can use a safety knife to make notches in a nut or bridge. I can glue and clamp. I can get a steamer kit from Rockler. I can cut rough forms out of 2x6s to shape the sides once they are steamed. I can glue the cut back boards or soundboard pieces together and sand them, shape and set the braces, place the foot, set the head, bolt the neck, set kerf, fret fingerboards, mount the head, mount tuners, use oils, stains, ...

    What I can't do is cut the neck, prep the neck for the truss rod or other support, cut the soundboard, cut the back, or cut the sides, or seemingly find a decent three string tailpiece.

    I am not in a position to act immediately. In fact right now I am low on non-fubared materials that meet my requirements. However, is there anyone here interested in discussing what it would take to help me out?

  2. #2
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Upstate New York
    Posts
    22,961
    Blog Entries
    52

    Default Re: Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;

    Well this may be of no help, but let me throw it out there. Sometimes its best to start with something kind of close to but acknowledged to be not what you want - just to get going. What options you have as you go sometimes don't come to you until you go in a direction, even a slightly wrong direction. But you can waste a lot of time waiting for exactly what you want, when kind of close to what you want is within reach and gets you some momentum. What you want may be right next to what you don't want, but you can't see it because what you don't want is in the way. Maybe by going there, closer to what you don't want, you'll see from there what you do want and a path to it.

    Er.. umm... something like that.
    Last edited by JeffD; Mar-09-2015 at 9:07pm.
    Indulge responsibly!

    The entire staff
    funny....

  3. The following members say thank you to JeffD for this post:


  4. #3
    Butcherer of Songs Rob Zamites's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Holt, MI USA
    Posts
    735
    Blog Entries
    3

    Default Re: Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;

    I built a modified kit from Music Makers. This Renaissance Guitar kit was set up with an 8 pin bridge and 8 tuners/strings instead of 6. Booming, bassy and fits my baritone voice perfectly. You might want to check out their offerings and jump start yourself there.



    =============================
    Apollonio Acousto-electric bouzouki (in shop)
    Mixter 10 string mandola (still waiting 2+ yrs)
    Unknown brand Mandocaster (on the way!)
    =============================
    "Doubt begins only at the last frontiers of what is possible." -- Ambrose Bierce

  5. #4

    Default Re: Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;

    Not that I got specific or anything, but minus the body shape of a quince (halfway between an apple and a pear) 22" wide, 28" long, and 3" deep - here are some numbers on the baritone.

    Scale: 27.750"
    From Nut to 16th Fret: 16.737"
    Percent SB Fret to Saddle: 00.481"
    Length, 16th Fret to Saddle: 11.013"
    Length, 16th Fret to Foot: 22.875"
    Width, at Bridge: ~20.375"
    Depth: 3"

    Soundhole Diameter: 2"
    Soundboard Thickness: .12 (120 mil)

    Number of Frets: 16
    Diameter of Fret Wire: Jumbo
    1st String: .031 wound
    2nd String: .041 wound
    3rd String: .057 wound

    Head, Length: 6.75"
    Head, Width: 4"
    Tuners: Bass

    Neck Thickness, Nut: 1.25"
    Neck Thickness, 16th Fret: 1.5"
    Neck Width, Nut: 1.75"
    Neck Width, 16th Fret: 2.2"

    Approx. Instrument Length: 46.362"


    (O, I have a printable pattern for the soundboard I can get printed at an office supply store.) And again:
    What I can't do is cut the neck, prep the neck for the truss rod or other support, cut the soundboard, cut the back, or cut the sides, or seemingly find a decent three string tailpiece.

  6. #5
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Grass Valley California
    Posts
    3,725

    Default Re: Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;

    ". . what I can't do is . . " No, you are only limited by your imagination. If you can visualize a neck you can chip away any areas that are not part of that design. It just takes time and patience. It does help to have a range of tools but very few are really needed. Get a knife or chisel and go for it. A rasp would be helpful during the final shaping stage.

    What tools do you have access to?

  7. #6

    Default Re: Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;

    Screw driver, wrench, hammer, mallet, pliers, sandpaper, safety knife, saws-all, drill, awl, glue, watercolor, ink, brushes, cotton rag, small air compressor for airing tires, hardened quickcrete, allen wrench, stud finder, circuit tester, rechargeable vacuum, nails, screws, washers, rubber bands.

    And no. I am not limited by my imagination. My imagination has bounced off the back of God's skull so many times He pop's Tylenol when I get up in the morning. What I am limited by is an unwillingness to screw up 50 boards more attempting to get one right. I am not looking for someone to make my instrument for me. I am looking for help with the few parts with which I need help: the neck, neck support trench, cut out soundboard, cut out back, and cut out the sides. So, it is either make a deal for some cuts or dump the idea forever.

  8. #7
    Registered User fscotte's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Zanesville, Ohio
    Posts
    2,460

    Default Re: Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;

    How does the neck attach to the body? What kind of joint? What is the shape of the body where the neck attaches? What kind of neck angle? Is it a raised fretboard?

    I think you need to at least draw it out for someone to get an idea what it's supposed to look like.

  9. #8
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Westchester, NY
    Posts
    26,255

    Default Re: Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;

    It sounds like you want a three-string baritone guitar. What tuning would you use? Prob it would be good to post a drawing of two of this here. If you really want this but don't want to build it yourself, you might have to commission one of the fine builders here to build it for you.

  10. #9
    F-style Apostate
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Tallahassee, FL
    Posts
    1,077

    Default Re: Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;

    I'm thinking that you sound like a good candidate to build an Appalachian (or lap) dulcimer. It's been years since I made one, but I assume there are a lot of good kits available.

    Simple, non-technical thing to build with a minimum of tools. Just a few strings, easy to play, and has a gentle and soothing sound.

    Actually, you spent a lot of time in your first post talking about what you don't like and what you can't do. What exactly is it you like? And- if you think you can't do a thing, you'll never try. Usually, those things are never as difficult as you imagine, and a positive attitude will take you a long way.

  11. #10
    Registered User bernabe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Winston-Salem, NC
    Posts
    586

    Default Re: Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;

    No way this is real...hardened concrete?, stud finder?

  12. The following members say thank you to bernabe for this post:


  13. #11
    Butcherer of Songs Rob Zamites's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Holt, MI USA
    Posts
    735
    Blog Entries
    3

    Default Re: Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;

    You could cut out side boards with a coping saw ($10 at harbor freight), neck can be shaped with a Stanley sur-form rasp ($12 at your local big box hardware store), trench can be cut out with a couple of chisels ($20, again, big box hardware store). I'm still on my second instrument, being done from scratch - want to see the wood I've ruined just trying to bend one side?

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	UCttITS.jpg 
Views:	106 
Size:	176.8 KB 
ID:	131534

    And while I will echo the previous sentiment posted here, that you limit your own self, I will also be a bit tougher with you and say that if something like cutting out wood is causing you to want to scrap the whole idea, maybe building this yourself isn't the proper path for you to be taking.

    Good luck.
    Last edited by Rob Zamites; Mar-10-2015 at 9:26am.
    =============================
    Apollonio Acousto-electric bouzouki (in shop)
    Mixter 10 string mandola (still waiting 2+ yrs)
    Unknown brand Mandocaster (on the way!)
    =============================
    "Doubt begins only at the last frontiers of what is possible." -- Ambrose Bierce

  14. #12
    Registered User fscotte's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Zanesville, Ohio
    Posts
    2,460

    Default Re: Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;

    Quote Originally Posted by bernabe View Post
    No way this is real...hardened concrete?, stud finder?
    What you don't build concrete instruments??


  15. #13
    Registered User Steve Sorensen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Santa Clarita, CA
    Posts
    2,218

    Default Re: Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;

    One of the greatest traits of working with hand tools is that you can work slowly . . . and even at the most basic skill level, that means you can avoid taking away material accidentally.

    However, in this era of instant-everything, the real controlling factors are patience, persistence and attention to detail. If you can wrap your mind around working slowly and carefully -- measuring many times, marking your guidelines precisely, and then never cutting on the wrong side of the line -- the tools you have could get you quality results.

    The real question, to me, appears in your list of "I don't-s" in your opening salvo. People have been building and refining instruments for 10,000+ years, so dismissing whole categories and associated areas of wisdom indicates, to me, a level of impatience which must first be overcome.

    When you can make a well-considered list of the musical traits, design history and player goals for the instrument you would like to build based upon the huge well-spring of information on building successes and failure, you will be ready to start drawing and re-drawing plans. Research is almost free, paper is cheap.

    Once you have plans drawn out that make sense with everything you know, getting out some wood is reasonable.

    Then, you will be ready to cut carefully, work patiently, and not turn beautiful material into kindling.

    Steve

  16. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Steve Sorensen For This Useful Post:


  17. #14

    Default Re: Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenS View Post
    Once you have plans drawn out that make sense with everything you know, getting out some wood is reasonable.

    Then, you will be ready to cut carefully, work patiently, and not turn beautiful material into kindling.

    Steve
    ...And then you still will turn beautiful wood into kindling. It happens.
    If you're unwilling to go through the yowling cat stage, then you will never learn to play violin.
    If you're unwilling to make beautiful wood into kindling, you will never make an instrument of your own design.

    What you could do is collaborate with an experienced luthier to design your instrument, and then pay them to build it for you.

  18. #15
    Registered User Steve Sorensen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Santa Clarita, CA
    Posts
    2,218

    Default Re: Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;

    True, Marty. Power tools and Auto-CAD sure haven't stopped me from making mountains of carefully calculated kindling!

    Steve

  19. #16

    Default Re: Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;

    I know, it hurts my heart.

  20. #17
    Butcherer of Songs Rob Zamites's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Holt, MI USA
    Posts
    735
    Blog Entries
    3

    Default Re: Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;

    Why just today I bought some paulownia for the purpose of ruining it!
    =============================
    Apollonio Acousto-electric bouzouki (in shop)
    Mixter 10 string mandola (still waiting 2+ yrs)
    Unknown brand Mandocaster (on the way!)
    =============================
    "Doubt begins only at the last frontiers of what is possible." -- Ambrose Bierce

  21. #18
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    DeKalb, IL
    Posts
    3,446

    Default Re: Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;

    Heck, Steve, that's the true beauty of the CNC. You can rapidly turn a lot of expensive wood into kindling while you're on the other side of the room! I thought I zeroed the z-axis at the right spot......

  22. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Dale Ludewig For This Useful Post:


  23. #19
    Registered User Colin Lindsay's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Tandragee, Northern Ireland
    Posts
    414

    Default Re: Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaqaliah View Post
    What I can't do is cut the neck, prep the neck for the truss rod or other support, cut the soundboard, cut the back, or cut the sides, or seemingly find a decent three string tailpiece.
    Maybe not now, but you WILL. Everybody starts somewhere - I havenít even started yet, but may someday, so youíre way ahead of me already. Donít be afraid to try. My garage is full of broken car parts that I wasnít afraid to experiment on, in order to learn how things work, and so repair other units that required it. Every mistake made, every aborted start is another experience in the learning process. youíre in the right place for help (although donít ask me, Iíve never tried making an instrument!)

    Incidentally - Rob - thatís a kit? There was one sold on eBay uK recently but the seller claimed to have made it himself and so it was unique; had I known it was a kit I wouldnít have bothered watching it for a week...
    "Danger! Do Not Touch!" must be one of the scariest things to read in Braille....

  24. #20
    Butcherer of Songs Rob Zamites's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Holt, MI USA
    Posts
    735
    Blog Entries
    3

    Default Re: Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;

    Quote Originally Posted by Colin Lindsay View Post
    Maybe not now, but you WILL. Everybody starts somewhere - I haven’t even started yet, but may someday, so you’re way ahead of me already. Don’t be afraid to try. My garage is full of broken car parts that I wasn’t afraid to experiment on, in order to learn how things work, and so repair other units that required it. Every mistake made, every aborted start is another experience in the learning process. you’re in the right place for help (although don’t ask me, I’ve never tried making an instrument!)

    Incidentally - Rob - that’s a kit? There was one sold on eBay uK recently but the seller claimed to have made it himself and so it was unique; had I known it was a kit I wouldn’t have bothered watching it for a week...
    Aye, 'tis - the 'Renaissance Guitar' kit, modded by them (harpkit.com - NFI) for 8 strings.
    =============================
    Apollonio Acousto-electric bouzouki (in shop)
    Mixter 10 string mandola (still waiting 2+ yrs)
    Unknown brand Mandocaster (on the way!)
    =============================
    "Doubt begins only at the last frontiers of what is possible." -- Ambrose Bierce

  25. #21
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Westchester, NY
    Posts
    26,255

    Default Re: Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;

    This is all interesting but I think you have explain your preferences here. You are in the builders' section so, naturally, you have gotten some excellent advice as to how you might go about building what it is you want. However, you stated that you may want a skilled person to build from your plans or worl with you to make them work. That, of course, is another possibility.

    So, you do need to decide whether you are going to the work on this instrument on your own or not.

    BTW one other possibility is to buy an already made neck and construct the rest of the instrument. Try Allparts, Warmoth, LMII or Stew-Mac.

    However, regarding your ideal instrument, you say (among other things):
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaqaliah View Post
    I don't like guitars. The are to big for my reach. I don't like Ukuleles. They are too shrill. I don't like courses that is just so redundant.
    You don't like guitars because they are too big but then you design an instrument with a longer scale than most guitars (27"+). And you don't like a lot of strings. As one poster noted, maybe you want a dulcimer. I mentioned that your plan sounds like a 3 string baritone guitar.

    You say you don't like ukuleles but are you aware that they come in different sizes. Have you tried a baritone uke? Those are usually tuned like the top four strings of a guitar and are not shrill. They have a much shorter neck tho than what your design asks for.
    Jim

    My Stream on Soundcloud
    Facebook
    19th Century Tunes
    Playing lately:
    1923 Gibson A2 black snakehead -- '83 Flatiron A5-2 -- Brentrup A4C -- 1915 Frank Merwin Ashley violin -- Huss & Dalton DS -- 1939 Gibson L-00 -- 1936 Epiphone Deluxe -- 1928 Gibson L-5 -- 1937 Gibson L-Century -- ca. 1890s Fairbanks Senator Banjo -- ca. 1923 Vega Style M tenor banjo -- ca. 1920 Weymann Style 25 Mandolin-Banjo -- National RM-1

  26. #22
    Registered User bernabe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Winston-Salem, NC
    Posts
    586

    Default Re: Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;

    .....I guess Im the only one smelling a troll.

  27. The following members say thank you to bernabe for this post:


  28. #23
    Registered User PT66's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Silvis, Illinios
    Posts
    254

    Default Re: Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;

    May I suggest that Jaqaliah find a luthier that lives near by. If you find one willing to mentor you and answer all your questions this could be done. Where do you live?
    Dave Schneider

  29. #24

    Default Re: Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;

    Quote Originally Posted by PT66 View Post
    May I suggest that Jaqaliah find a luthier that lives near by. If you find one willing to mentor you and answer all your questions this could be done. Where do you live?
    I live in West Central Missouri. It is 10 miles to the nearest gas station, and 20 to the nearest grocery, medical, cop-shop, or Wal-mart in any direction. The closest carpenter is 12 miles and they weren't interested in helping - even for cash. (And that was when I had transportation and could do something besides mail the pieces to them.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    This is all interesting but I think you have to explain your preferences here. You are in the builders' section so, naturally, you have gotten some excellent advice as to how you might go about building what it is you want. However, you stated that you may want a skilled person to build from your plans or work with you to make them work. That, of course, is another possibility. So, you do need to decide whether you are going to the work on this instrument on your own or not.
    I am not sure how getting the cut of the neck, sides, back, and soundboard turns into turning over the entire project to someone else to have it done for me in every aspect. I have described in length repeatedly what I cannot do myself. That I am what Confucius calls a wise man, capable of recognizing my own limitiations and valuing others who can do what I can't.
    BTW one other possibility is to buy an already made neck
    I have looked and there is nothing out there. If someone made a ready to attach neck for a bass balalaika I would have something I could substitute in.
    maybe you want a dulcimer.
    I don't want a dulcimer. I don't want the frets on the body. I don't want a diatonic scale. I have too many other things to do to play without frets - though that would be the best way to go. But as I am going to have them I want the chromatic set.
    However, regarding your ideal instrument, you say (among other things):
    You don't like guitars because they are too big but then you design an instrument with a longer scale than most guitars (27"+).
    It isn't the length of the scale it is the length of my hand. I have short wide hands that can't get to the end of the fingers in a cleaning glove but will split it out before I fill in the palm. And yes, I calculated 5 designs in total (Soprano, Tenor, Alto, Baritone, and Bass). The one I want to execute is the Baritone which is my voice range. I would do the bass, but my fingers don't reach between the frets at the nut end on a bass.
    Have you tried a baritone uke?
    My design is deeply rooted in the ancient principles and symbols. That is part of why I would either get it done right or not at all.
    It sounds like you want a three-string baritone guitar. What tuning would you use?
    The strings I chose are D2, A2, and E3 (tuned to D3) - Pro-Arte Nylon, Light Tension from D'Addario.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colin Lindsay View Post
    Everybody starts somewhere - I havenít even started yet, but may someday, so youíre way ahead of me already.
    I understand. However, I don't want to start. I want to finish. I have other things to do.
    Every mistake made, every aborted start is another experience in the learning process.
    A wise woman (my mother) once told me,"It only takes really F@#$ing something up once to learn why you never want to do it that way again. That is how one gets common sense." I prefer to avoid that waste of time, money, and resources.

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenS View Post
    One of the greatest traits of working with hand tools is that you can work slowly . . .
    I can only work as slowly as I can see immediate accomplishment. I am hardwired with that condition. This is why I cannot paint with oils. I have attempted to hand saw an inset for a fret board on a piece of red oak for a CBG. I cannot get a straight line. It was even 3/16th of an inch bowed to the inside of the cut and slivered. I don't have patience. I don't have time. I need to get the projects out of the way of the projects in the way of the projects because I have life things coming at me to deal with instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Zamites View Post
    You could cut out side boards with a coping saw ($10 at harbor freight)
    No, I cannot and keep them straight.
    neck can be shaped with a Stanley sur-form rasp ($12 at your local big box hardware store)
    While the neck can be straight the measures I gave have a touch more elegance than that - with a narrowing at the nut end. Again, I cannot do long cuts straight cuts.
    you limit your own self
    And I will say again, someone who does not assess their own limits is a fool. I cannot make the bigger cuts. I lack the equipment to make it quick and easy. I lack the skill to do it by hand. I am not going to do this for a life time unless I win the lottery - and since I don't buy tickets that is unlikely. This is a project designed on a step towards other things. But it can remain an idea in the things that never were.
    Quote Originally Posted by fscotte View Post
    How does the neck attach to the body? What kind of joint? What is the shape of the body where the neck attaches? What kind of neck angle? Is it a raised fretboard?
    The fretboard is going to be parallel half a no. 2 pencil below the strings. I was gonna slot the sides into the neck and glue the header in with hide glue. Here is a silhouette of the baritone:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Marmalion.jpg 
Views:	86 
Size:	20.3 KB 
ID:	131550

  30. #25
    Registered User fscotte's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Zanesville, Ohio
    Posts
    2,460

    Default Re: Non-conformist idiot here could use a support therapist ... ;

    I'd be interested to know where and how you decided on the measurements above? Surely, you have some guidance from somewhere.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •