Water or Alcohol for hand applied sunburst

[Whittle]

I will soon be attempting my first hand rubbed sunburst stain. I'll be using the Colortone Liquid Stain in three colors as my stains. I plan to follow the application technique shown in the video below:



According to the directions, I can either use alcohol or water to dilute the concentrate and make my stain. Do you all recommend alcohol or water for the solvent? After the stain dries, I will be sealing with shellac before varnishing with Truoil.

Any thoughts? Thanks!

[Mike Black]

I like to mix with alcohol. Just have to be careful sealing with the shellac afterwards so it doesn't smear it. I use a small air brush for the seal coat.

[Grommet]

Seems like some have recommended a light coat or two of thinned shellac to seal the bare wood prior to applying the stain to avoid uneven absorption.

Scott

[Bernie Daniel]

Seems like some have recommended a light coat or two of thinned shellac to seal the bare wood prior to applying the stain to avoid uneven absorption. Scott

In that case (i.e., a sealer first) I assume you would be locked in to using alcohol diluted dyes because I would not think that water dissolved stains would penetrate through the shellac covered surface very well?

I like to use an air brush to mist on the sealer coats of shellac after the staining -- no running of colors.

Also, IMO, doing the sunburst on a spruce top is much harder than the maple back because the greater friction on the spruce surface and also having to work around the f-holes.

[Ivan Kelsall]

I've used water based stains in the past when i've been going to finish with shellac afterwards. To use alcohol based stains & then to finish using another alcohol based product,takes a great deal of skill in order not to smear the stain while applying the shellac,so i think that the idea of using an airbrush as per Mike Black's & Bernie's advice is spot on = no rubbing = no smearing !.
I must admit that watching the video clip,as soon as the stain went on & i saw the colour,i immediately thought Gibson ''Goldrush''
colour - amazing,
Ivan

[Bernie Daniel]

I've used water based stains in the past when i've been going to finish with shellac afterwards. To use alcohol based stains & then to finish using another alcohol based product,takes a great deal of skill in order not to smear the stain while applying the shellac,so i think that the idea of using an airbrush as per Mike Black's & Bernie's advice is spot on = no rubbing = no smearing !.
I must admit that watching the video clip,as soon as the stain went on & i saw the colour,i immediately thought Gibson ''Goldrush''
colour - amazing, Ivan

Exactly Ivan thought sunburst too when the first yellow wash went on! I wonder why?

The video reminded me of John Hammet's "classic" sunburst video of five years ago for the MC restoration project. Amazing how time flies. The application techniques are similar except that John builds up the middle tone of the burst before going to dark edges -- the person in the video shown by the OP in the first post adds the middle blending color third in the sequence not second. One is an "outside in" approach the other "inside out".

Also to be noted is that John works on the spruce top not the maple bottom . Good idea to watch both I'd say.

The part I wonder about is laying down some shellac on the bare before starting the wood staining as mentioned in post #3 -- it might be a great idea for all I know --I've never tried it. But I'd be interested in more thoughts on that.

[Jim Hilburn]

Steve Gilchrist uses water based dyes, not Colortone, but powdered dyes that are water specific. I don't know who can possibly touch his hand rubbed sunbursts. But I think the reason is the same as Mike B. pointed out, the alcohol in the shellac won't bleed the color as easily.

[HogTime]

I used TransTint in water for my sunburst. Looked really good. But then I brushed on the water based lacquer and almost had a heart attack. Many bad words flowed from my mouth . Managed to recover from it OK, but didn't look as good as the "stain only" result.

[Whittle]

Thanks for the input everyone! I have looked at John's sunburst also before starting my thread. It was quite helpful. In the absence of spray equipment, it looks like i'll stick with water based for now so I have a lesser chance of smearing it when I start finishing. I'm planning to practice a few times on a spare piece of maple before I touch the mandolin to get a good idea of whether alcohol or water based will work better for me. I'll mix up a small batch of each. If I still have trouble with smearing, I'll have to regroup and think of something else.

[Bernie Daniel]

Steve Gilchrist uses water based dyes, not Colortone, but powdered dyes that are water specific. I don't know who can possibly touch his hand rubbed sunbursts. But I think the reason is the same as Mike B. pointed out, the alcohol in the shellac won't bleed the color as easily.

I like the TansTint powdered water soluble dyes. I buy them as 1 ounce of dry powder and dissolve it in 8 oz. (~ 1 cup or 500 mL) of boiling distilled water (heat the water in glass, not a metal container).

The dye and water is mixed, and readily dissolves, in a 600 mL brown glass, chemically clean, wide-mouth bottle with a teflon lined cap.

After the dye solution has cooled, add about 5 drops of chloroform to the dye solution (it will settle to the bottom) and you will never have bacteria growing on your dye solution. Label and date the bottle.

Store in a cool dark place on a shop shelf. These stock dye solutions are stable for at least 10 years --that is the oldest bottle I have!

Here is a product description for the TransTint dyes:

TransTints are formulated from light stable metallized acid dyes. They are more lightfast when compared to conventional aniline powdered type dye stains. This unique concentrated formulation allows the user great latitude in using the dye because it is compatible with a wide variety of finishing products. The dye can be mixed with either water or alcohol as a bare stain on wood - or added directly to finishing materials like shellac and lacquer to make toners or stains.

[Jim Hilburn]

Back in the aniline days the waster based powders were considered much more colorfast than the alcohol, something I learned the hard way in the 80's. I made some electric instruments that when you remove any parts like neck plate or control plate you can see the rich original color but the rest of the instrument is faded quite severely.

[Timbofood]

Bernie, quick equivalent correction, a cup =250 ml. not 500. Easy mistake. Wanted to catch it before someone started to mix, just in case.

[Bernie Daniel]

Bernie, quick equivalent correction, a cup =250 ml. not 500. Easy mistake. Wanted to catch it before someone started to mix, just in case.

Right you are! Thanks!

Dissolve 1 oz of dye in 500 mL (or 1 pint) of hot distilled water. Refer to post #10 in string

[Champlin]

In the absence of spray equipment, it looks like i'll stick with water based for now so I have a lesser chance of smearing it when I start finishing.

I use a preval sprayer with shellac just for the purpose of sealing my 'bursts and it works well enough.

[Whittle]

I use a preval sprayer with shellac just for the purpose of sealing my 'bursts and it works well enough.

That looks like just what I need! Thanks!

[Bernie Daniel]

I use a preval sprayer with shellac just for the purpose of sealing my 'bursts and it works well enough.

Nice! For small jobs that would beat dragging out the compressor and hoses!