Anyone who doesn't believe that instruments open up from playing

[barry]

.......is entitled to their own opinion. However, that opinion is incorrect.
I've read both sides of this over the years. The naysayers profess that it is the player, not the instrument, that "opens up". Or that changes due to time, temperature, humidity, lunar patterns.....whatever...are being perceived.

Wrong.

Saturday, I lent a mandolin to a friend of mine, AtlantaMandoMike, after our "Valentine's Day Mando Tasting" (see previous thread). He had it for three days. He played it for 5 hours per day over those three days. I received it back yesterday. I am astounded at how different it is.

The difference is far from subtle. It's very, VERY apparent.

It was a great sounding instrument to begin with, so we're not talking about miracles. It's just waaaaayyy more resonant and responsive. It's louder with more of everything across the fretboard and up and down the neck.

Before anyone chimes in with contrary theories, it's an instrument that I've owned for several years (over 3). I know what it sounds like. I know what it feels like. I've played it recently. I did not forget what it was like between Saturday and Tuesday. I know how it sounds and responds with old and new strings. I know how it plays with various picks. I am playing it in the same room as before.

Cumulative vibrations do something to the fibers of the wood. Having an instrument exposed to different vibrations imparts something new in an instrument.
Mike is a great player with monster technique. There is no doubt that he whipped some new mojo into that thing. No doubt in my mind.


b

[funkycarnivore]

Not disputing you at all. But I'm wondering if anyone's heard of this process occurring and making an instrument sound worse? If tone is a preference, doesn't it follow that at least someone has preferred the previous tone/feel of their instrument? Like I said, I have no reason to question your results; just wondering if the opposite has ever happened.

[JeffD]

Maybe he wacked the bridge out of position, and replaced it for you, better than where it was when you gave it to him.

[sunburst]

Cumulative vibrations do something to the fibers of the wood. Having an instrument exposed to different vibrations imparts something new in an instrument.

And there you have it. Indisputable fact.
I wish I could be so certain about anything in life.

Edit to say, perhaps I shouldn't be so "snarky", but this is just one more anecdote. That's just not good enough for some of us who prefer actual evidence. If trained violin players and trained listeners can't reliable identify the Stradivari violins, that they believed to be vastly superior, in double blind tests, in different rooms, in different situations, solo and in ensembles, people who were certain that there was a vast difference, then how am I to believe that anyone can reliably tell if playing an instrument improves it? I include myself in that, though I've observed it myself; an instrument that is handed back to me after being played by someone else seeming more responsive and better sounding. I don't trust my own judgement enough to state it as fact, though I have good faith in my own judgement. I suspect I would have no better chance of success in a double blind listening/playing test than the trained violinists who couldn't pick out the Strad.

[barry]

Not disputing you at all. But I'm wondering if anyone's heard of this process occurring and making an instrument sound worse? If tone is a preference, doesn't it follow that at least someone has preferred the previous tone/feel of their instrument? Like I said, I have no reason to question your results; just wondering if the opposite has ever happened.

That would be an easy theory to test....

"Hey AtlantaMandoMike!!! Can I borrow one of your mandolins for a few days?"

[FLATROCK HILL]

.......is entitled to their own opinion. However, that opinion is incorrect.
I've read both sides of this over the years. The naysayers profess that it is the player, not the instrument, that "opens up". Or that changes due to time, temperature, humidity, lunar patterns.....whatever...are being perceived.

Wrong.

Saturday, I lent a mandolin to a friend of mine, AtlantaMandoMike, after our "Valentine's Day Mando Tasting" (see previous thread). He had it for three days. He played it for 5 hours per day over those three days. I received it back yesterday. I am astounded at how different it is.

The difference is far from subtle. It's very, VERY apparent.

It was a great sounding instrument to begin with, so we're not talking about miracles. It's just waaaaayyy more resonant and responsive. It's louder with more of everything across the fretboard and up and down the neck.

Before anyone chimes in with contrary theories, it's an instrument that I've owned for several years (over 3). I know what it sounds like. I know what it feels like. I've played it recently. I did not forget what it was like between Saturday and Tuesday. I know how it sounds and responds with old and new strings. I know how it plays with various picks. I am playing it in the same room as before.

Cumulative vibrations do something to the fibers of the wood. Having an instrument exposed to different vibrations imparts something new in an instrument.
Mike is a great player with monster technique. There is no doubt that he whipped some new mojo into that thing. No doubt in my mind.


b

I'm sure YOU are convinced. It might take a little bit more of a controlled experiment to convince any non-believers. And you'd need some tangible evidence such as before and after recordings.

Not to mention the fact that in this particular case, what you would be demonstrating is that a mandolin played 5 hours a day for three days by AtlantaMandoMike opened up. Maybe he alone has the AtlantaMandoMikeMojo.

[Jstring]

Didn't we just beat this to death a few weeks ago? Usually we wait a month, haha...

I think we should split this into two separate issues:
1) do instruments break in over a substantial period of time, like years?
2) do instruments "wake up" after being played hard for a few hours / days?

Seems like Barry is really discussing #2.... There is obviously no consensus about #1, as a hundred threads can prove! But what about #2? Is that as controversial or do we generally agree that an instrument can "wake up"?

Barry, I've definitely experienced what you describe. If you let that mandolin sit untouched for a week or two, I wouldn't be surprised if it goes back to sleep and you "lose" your new-found tonal improvement...

[barry]

I'm sure YOU are convinced. It might take a little bit more of a controlled experiment to convince any non-believers. And you'd need some tangible evidence such as before and after recordings.
Not to mention the fact that in this particular case, what you would be demonstrating is that a mandolin played 5 hours a day for three days by AtlantaMandoMike opens up.

Agreed.
To test my experience accurately, there would have to be, not only a recording measuring volume and spectrum, but also some way to measure the force used to pluck the string. That's the main difference that I am experiencing. It takes less force to get volume and tone out of the instrument now. It feels more supple. It's easier to play. How do you measure that?

[Jackgaryk]

I got a couple mk's I would like to loan him... seriously Barry, I believe you are hearing a difference.

[stevedenver]

it was beaten....
I agree with barry, based upon my own old D28 and comments not only from mary flower, who heard it over several weeks after being 'asleep' for any months, as well as my own perceptions

but am well aware this could be nonsense...I think I know enough to know what I don't know.....

and, one will not make friends with such no-room-for-argument attitudes.......perhaps it wasn't meant that way, but the OP reads that way to me.

[sunburst]

There is obviously no consensus about #1, as a hundred threads can prove! But what about #2? Is that as controversial or do we generally agree that an instrument can "wake up"?

Any time there is no strong consensus of opinion I tend to doubt whether whatever is in question is true. If there is no experimentally gained evidence to support one side or the other of the argument, that makes it even less likely that whatever it is exists.
However, there are still people who will never believe the earth is not flat, despite plenty of evidence that it is round, so there will probably never be universal acceptance of or universal dismissal of #1 or #2.

Oh, and I just remembered. Someone did a double blind test to see if a devise that vibrates an instrument makes a perceptible difference. They found no evidence that it does. In spite of that, there are still people who will declare that there is a huge difference after the treatment and the study was obviously flawed of faked or otherwise not credible, just like there are people saying "yeah, but..." following the Strad double blind test.
It will never be settled.

Oh sorry, I can't state that as fact, as sure as I am of it. I'll re-phrase; I don't think if will ever be settled.

[barry]

it was beaten....
I agree with barry, based upon my own old D28 and comments not only from mary flower, who heard it over several weeks after being 'asleep' for any months, as well as my own perceptions

but am well aware this could be nonsense...I think I know enough to know what I don't know.....

and, one will not make friends with such no-room-for-argument attitudes.......perhaps it wasn't meant that way, but the OP reads that way to me.

Sorry. Not trying to alienate anyone. After reading this post, I would like to amend my initial observation from "opening up" to "waking up". Everything else is still valid.

http://youtu.be/83ozOX9l7M8

[DavidKOS]

Oh sorry, I can't state that as fact, as sure as I am of it. I'll re-phrase; I don't think if will ever be settled.

It may not be, although my personal experience is yes, some instruments will "open- or wake - up" a bit after a lot of playing....sometimes months, sometimes years. This is not a scientific theory, just my casual observation.

[darrylicshon]

Atleast that's cheaper than buying a tonerite

[Astro]

OK, but why post your belief here now ? You already know you are right. No discussion needed. You already know those who think otherwise are wrong, no discussion invited. You know that Mike's cumulated hours of great playing and technique imparted special forces that have fundamentally and irreversibly changed cells and wood fibers in your instrument for the better (since he is a better player is the presumption you propose). Happily a poor player didnt get ahold of it and play it to worsen your instruments tone.

You've obviously been privy to the inexhaustible countless other threads that have been exhausted on the subject.

So whats the point ?

[FLATROCK HILL]

You've obviously been privy to the inexhaustible countless other threads that have been exhausted on the subject.So whats the point ?

Hey Astro, I was amused by your take on the subject, but I have one question.
How can something that's inexhaustible be exhausted?

[barry]

OK, but why post your belief here now ? You already know you are right. No discussion needed. You already know those who think otherwise are wrong, no discussion invited. You know that Mike's cumulated hours of great playing and technique imparted special forces that have fundamentally and irreversibly changed cells and wood fibers in your instrument for the better (since he is a better player is the presumption you propose). Happily a poor player didnt get ahold of it and play it to worsen your instruments tone.

You've obviously been privy to the inexhaustible countless other threads that have been exhausted on the subject.

So whats the point ?

Uh oh.....I think I just became one of "those guys". Surely not my intention.
My point for posting was, yes, I have read many of those threads. Last night was such a dramatic, first hand validation, that I felt compelled to share. Sorry if my enthusiasm came off as too "in your face". Apologies.

[Petrus]

Not disputing you at all. But I'm wondering if anyone's heard of this process occurring and making an instrument sound worse?

If the phenomenon is real, then there must be cases where an instrument can "open up" too much. This could happen to one that is already fairly open (meaning resonant?) being overplayed. I have heard that classical guitars suffer from this problem; they're already so lightly built, they can only take so many years of intensive use before getting played out, whatever that entails -- maybe imbalances in sound, over-resonance where you don't want it, etc.

If we generalize the "opening up" / "warming up" phenomena to simply state that instruments change over time due to various conditions that affect the wood, few would disagree. Mandolins are so delicate and complex, and tone can be affected by the most minute changes of conditions, that it would seem reasonable to postulate that intensive playing would have an affect on sound.

[Timbofood]

I think it's far more likely that we "want it to be so" and, when someone else plays your instrument for a while we think that it's different because we "want it to be so".
I was lucky enough to be a test picker for a prototype, I honestly do not know that it sounded better after an hour or if it was because I had PLAYED for an hour and hands were looser and muscles were warmed up. After fifteen minutes, I wanted it so but, the more I played it the better it felt which is another thing all together.
This is such a sticky subject, I used to wholeheartedly believe it but, as I get older, I am less positive. Maybe the ear wants what it wants, just like the heart.

[Jackgaryk]

Uh oh.....I think I just became one of "those guys". Surely not my intention.
My point for posting was, yes, I have read many of those threads. Last night was such a dramatic, first hand validation, that I felt compelled to share. Sorry if my enthusiasm came off as too "in your face". Apologies.

hey Barry...I am glad you shared this with me. I enjoy any mandolin enthusiasm. Those of us that are fairly new to the Cafe will learn from your shared experience.

[pheffernan]

If we generalize the "opening up" / "warming up" phenomena to simply state that instruments change over time due to various conditions that affect the wood, few would disagree. Mandolins are so delicate and complex, and tone can be affected by the most minute changes of conditions, that it would seem reasonable to postulate that intensive playing would have an affect on sound.

It seems reasonable to postulate that intensive playing might have an effect on sound. But given that multiple conditions affect the wood, singling out fifteen hours of intensive playing as being incontrovertibly the one factor, while other opinions are deemed "incorrect" and "wrong," seems flawed. Given that we are talking about three days here, I would wonder whether environmental factors are at play. For instance, Mike might heat his house and/or humidify his instruments differently than Barry does during these winter months.

[Bill Baldridge]

To my ear, my mandolin sounds different every time I play it. The temperature is warmer, the temperature is colder, the barometric pressure is greater or less, the strings are new, the strings are old, the acoustics are different from the last place I played it, I am striking the strings harder, I am striking the strings softer, my technique is better, my technique is worse, and on and on and on.

People are free to believe whatever they want. I believe that my mandolin is “happier” with the rattle snake rattle in it. It is when people claim that their opinion is “fact” that some of us reach for the salt shaker.

[Timbofood]

With you on the variables, Bill!
Keeping a salt shaker handy

[Mandoplumb]

Not disputing you at all. But I'm wondering if anyone's heard of this process occurring and making an instrument sound worse? If tone is a preference, doesn't it follow that at least someone has preferred the previous tone/feel of their instrument? Like I said, I have no reason to question your results; just wondering if the opposite has ever happened.

. No because the tone doesn't "change" it intensifies. The instrument's sound is what you like but as it is played and ages the sound gets more like it sounds if that makes sense. I think all new instruments sound new some sound good but new some are a POS will always be a POS, like Bill Cosby said when he was told that a joint intensifies your personality " what if you are a SOB"

[Kowboy]

I'm thinking it's the weather conditions when the mandolin is being played and to me, my strings generally reach a period that suits my ears best. I mostly do not like new strings. Strings for me go from OK to super and then the trash can. Maybe the friend whipped the eight little wires into a perfect state for you.