Bluegrass Underground

[Willie Poole]

On TV last night I watched The Traveling McCourys, the show is called Bluegrass Underground because it is performed in a cave in Tennessee...I did not hear one song that could be classified as bluegrass....The guitar player was Keller (something or the other) and he didn`t even wear any shoes and his guitar playing was all over the place, chords that I know weren`t even in the songs they played...

This is what discusses me when they call that kind of music "Bluegrass", we all know the talents of Ronnie and Rob and along with Jason Carter on fiddle they are about as good as any band out there but I guess they want to make a splash without dad...As much as I enjoy them with Del I will not go to see or even listen to them without dad....

Just my opinion, more power to you if you enjoy them....

Willie

[journeybear]

Willie, I've mentioned this show a few times since one of my local PBS stations started running it this year. I agree with you that the title is misleading, as its current roster of performers vary far and wide and many have little or nothing to do with bluegrass. Perhaps it started out with more traditional performers, I don't know, but it's in its fourth season now. They did have The Gibson Brothers on last week, the David Grisman Folk/Jazz Trio two weeks before that, and the Steep Canyon Rangers earlier on. The show you saw is scheduled for this week here. I've been looking forward to it, even though my favorite McCoury is Del.

The website could be easier to navigate, but there are a few videos there, including Ralph Stanley doing "O Death" a capella and Jerry Douglas - with drums. So, not strictly bluegrass.

They tape all the shows for the season during one weekend, and this year that's coming up at the end of next month. They have some bluegrass, and also some other stuff. They seem to be able to attract a lot of top notch talent. The lure of playing in a cavern chamber 333 feet below the ground, in apparently very good acoustics, is surely irresistible to a lot of performers, and they are building quite a roster of alumni.

The Complete Season 5 Bluegrass Underground lineup:

Friday, March 27
Bela Fleck & Abigail Washburn
Hot Rize
Robert Earl Keen
Chatham County Line

Saturday, March 28
Jerry Douglas presents The Earls of Leicester
Lee Ann Womack
Amos Lee
The Quebe Sisters

Sunday, March 29
Leftover Salmon
Railroad Earth
Greensky Bluegrass

[emzech]

Wow. I'm very excited for March 29th now! Thanks, journeybear, for the heads up!

[journeybear]

Um, sorry - sold out. Not sure what the seating capacity is, but I'm sure the demand for tickets for those bands was strong. But looking at the show times, they run a tight schedule of 45 minutes, half of which (23 minutes) makes it to broadcast.

[JH Murray]

Bluegrass Underground is put together by the same people who do the Music City Roots show out of Nashville. Very similar line up between the two programs.

[Jackgaryk]

I usually set up the dvr to record bluegrass underground. If they have a good mandolin picker I will watch the show. If not....I delete it. As far as the cave...I'm only about 80 miles away and never wanted to go see it live. Late night in my recliner with a mandolin in my lap with the surround sound kicking does it for me. well maybe an adult beverage or three. Retirement is good!

[emzech]

Um, sorry - sold out. Not sure what the seating capacity is, but I'm sure the demand for tickets for those bands was strong. But looking at the show times, they run a tight schedule of 45 minutes, half of which (23 minutes) makes it to broadcast.

Ah, I think I misunderstood your post. I thought those were the TV air times, not the recording dates. I had heard that Greensky was going to be on the program this year, but hadn't heard about RRE or LS being there so I was happy to see them. It kind of makes sense they would all play/record on the same day. But I wasn't planning on buying a ticket. I live 1,000 miles north in middle of the glacier formerly known as Massachusetts, plus I'm a bit too claustrophobic to hangout in a hole deep underground.

[mbruno]

Honestly, the venue just looks awesome. I'd like to go just to go there and experience it - and I live in San Diego.

Never seen a show in a cave before. Now I feel like I have to

[David Cottingham]

Reminds me of a fun band who call themselves Blueground Undergrass.

[coletrickle]

On TV last night I watched The Traveling McCourys, the show is called Bluegrass Underground because it is performed in a cave in Tennessee...I did not hear one song that could be classified as bluegrass....The guitar player was Keller (something or the other) and he didn`t even wear any shoes and his guitar playing was all over the place, chords that I know weren`t even in the songs they played...

This is what discusses me when they call that kind of music "Bluegrass", we all know the talents of Ronnie and Rob and along with Jason Carter on fiddle they are about as good as any band out there but I guess they want to make a splash without dad...As much as I enjoy them with Del I will not go to see or even listen to them without dad....

Just my opinion, more power to you if you enjoy them....

Willie

I didn't watch this but if you are talking about Keller Williams, I wonder if the set was more about his songs with the McCoury's backing him. I've seen The Traveling McCourys live and I thought they had a nice mix of traditional bluegrass, with bit of a progressive spin on some songs. While not everything was traditional, they had a lot of numbers there were straight up bluegrass. Keller is not bluegrass and if they are playing with him, it is going to be a much different set.

On another note, the McCoury's album with the Lee Boys (Meetin' In the Middle) is such a great album. Cross section of bluegrass gospel and sacred steel...really cool sound (not traditional bluegrass).

[journeybear]

I'm a bit too claustrophobic to hangout in a hole deep underground.

I know shat you mean. I've done some caving, and some of them were really just a little more than a hole in the ground. This looks like an enormous room as far as caves go. It also looks really cool - and I don't mean the constant 56° so I'd be willing to give it a try. If I am reading the website right, tickets for each taping are $30, which isn't too bad for set from 3-4 acts. It looks like they have other shows during the year, too, not just for the weekend that is taped for later broadcast on PBS. In fact, coming up is IIIrd Time Out, a bluegrass band. Imagine that - I actually brought it back around to the original topic.

[Willie Poole]

Coletrickle, Thanks for that info, I had not seen The Travelin`McCoury`s until that show and you are most likely correct that they were just backing up Keller Williams, I wasn`t really putting them down for what they were playing, what gets me is how promoters can call stuff like that "Bluegrass", but Robbie did play The Foggy Mountain Breakdown at the end of one song....I had never heard of Keller Williams before and don`t care if I ever see or hear of him again, CAN`T HE AFFORD SHOES? Playing in a 56 degree cave must have made his feet cold....I have a friend that lived real close to the cave and he said he never really cared about going either maybe he felt uncomfortable under ground too...And he loves and plays bluegrass, actually he plays a banjo UGH...

Willie

[DataNick]

Travellin McCourys did a "Jam Band" set with the String Cheese Incident out here last year at Huck Finn. It was not at all what most people I run with would call Bluegrass; but apparently the popular trend these days is to lump most flavors of Acoustic music with a "Country" type instrumentation into a "Bluegrass" label (re: Ricky Skaggs having Peter Frampton do "Baby I Love Your Way" on the Opry). It is not the Bluegrass of Bill Monroe, Flatt & Scruggs, Stanley Brothers, etc. As the saying goes however, "It is what it is", and it is futile to argue about it.

It is refreshing however that apparently a significant number of young people are listening to acoustic music versus the "pop" stuff, so that's a silver lining. When you share with young people that you play or are into bluegrass, those are the kinds of acts they're thinking of (String Cheese, Barefoot Movement, Yonder Mountain Stringband, Della Mae, etc).

My personal experience however is when "introduced" to Bill Monroe, Flatt & Scruggs, Stanley Brothers, etc that young people dig it.

The labels have shifted, but there's room for everybody!

[mbruno]

I loved Huck Finn last year and I'm not a huge fan of Cheese in general. I love the blend of traditional and new. I'm in to jam bands like Phish and Travelin McCourys and etc - but something about Cheese I just don't like that much. Maybe I need to listen to them more.

The thing that always strikes me as odd is that Bill Monroe has been quoted a few times saying stuff like "I was determined to carge out a music of my own. I didn't want to copy anybody." Then the died hard Monroe-ians get in a hissy fit when someone changes their bluegrass music because they didn't copy Bill. Bluegrass (and all music) is meant to change with the times. There's something wonderful about the old music, it's great to hear standards redone and new songs that sound like old ones - but hearing something fresh is just amazing.

Chris Thile's genere hopping youtube is a good example. Blur the lines, get excited about music, do weird things, and have fun.

All that said, Nick I agree. Once people hear the old stuff, they love it. I know that happened to me - but I still like playing Paranoid Android on mandolin even though I'll never get to play it at the bluegrass jams

[DataNick]

...All that said, Nick I agree. Once people hear the old stuff, they love it. I know that happened to me - but I still like playing Paranoid Android on mandolin even though I'll never get to play it at the bluegrass jams

I hear ya Bruno, and I'll play "Back In Black" on the mando, but not at a Bluegrass jam either

[CES]

Willie,

Keller Williams doesn't play your kind of music, but he's a really talented musician. He's a master of the one man band set up with a looper. Lays down bass line, drums, keys, rhythm guitar, then plays lead and sings. His music isn't my favorite, either, as there's only so much jam band I can take on recordings (live it's definitely a better experience), but the guy can rip it...but, agree totally that it ain't bluegrass!!

Peace,

Chuck

[mbruno]

I hear ya Bruno, and I'll play "Back In Black" on the mando, but not at a Bluegrass jam either

Next time I see you at a jam, let's rock out

I just taught Wish You Were Here and Red Haired Boy in the same lesson

[Tom Coletti]

The thing that always strikes me as odd is that Bill Monroe has been quoted a few times saying stuff like "I was determined to carve out a music of my own. I didn't want to copy anybody." Then the died hard Monroe-ians get in a hissy fit when someone changes their bluegrass music because they didn't copy Bill.

I've been saying this constantly, but trying to throw reason at those who took everything that the guy lived for, turned it on its head, and made a false prophet to violently defend is like trying to kick water uphill. You're not going to win.

--Tom

[Tom Coletti]

On TV last night I watched The Traveling McCourys, the show is called Bluegrass Underground because it is performed in a cave in Tennessee...I did not hear one song that could be classified as bluegrass....The guitar player was Keller (something or the other) and he didn`t even wear any shoes and his guitar playing was all over the place, chords that I know weren`t even in the songs they played...

This is what discusses me when they call that kind of music "Bluegrass", we all know the talents of Ronnie and Rob and along with Jason Carter on fiddle they are about as good as any band out there but I guess they want to make a splash without dad...As much as I enjoy them with Del I will not go to see or even listen to them without dad....

Just my opinion, more power to you if you enjoy them....

Willie

I told myself not to jump in the trenches, but not one song? I'll call and re-raise.

With neither prior knowledge nor prejudice towards the artists or venue described, I dug through some video clips to see how blasphemous this supposedly was. First, a warmup piece to familiarize one's self with The Travelin' McCourys. Something undoubtedly early bluegrass, like say, Train 45?



Now a video from the Bluegrass Underground set with Keller Williams, colloquially known as the Antichrist by the accusations set in the original post:



There's a traditional 1-4-5 bluegrass chord progression in C, traditional Scruggs-style banjo, traditional quintet of instruments, traditional rhythm held by the bass and mandolin chop on the downbeat and upbeat, respectively, traditional high tenor harmonies, traditional pattern of vocal chorus intermixed with instrumental breaks in which each instrument improvises around a melody, a mention of Prohibition-era alcohol, and the mandolinist even has a history of playing in a very Monroe-esque style right down to chord-based and double-stop-based runs and eighth notes with only down strokes.

If this isn't "Real, True, Traditional, and Other Applicable Meaningless Buzzword Bluegrass," then I don't know what to tell ya, man... Maybe they did covers of non-bluegrass or progressive bluegrass numbers on other tracks, but there is indisputable proof that at least one track in that show could at the very least potentially qualify as bluegrass just by meeting all of the commonly-accepted criteria.

As a side note, who cares if Keller didn't wear shoes? Bill probably hasn't worn shoes since 1996. Haven't heard him complain.

--Tom

[Mark Christensen]

I think good Ol' Willie should post a video of himself playing Bluegrass so all us hacks and pro's alike can finally see the right way to play it. Can I wear sandals?

Tom Colletti there's no point in trying to convince Willie the Master of "That ain't Bluegrass" of anything. In fact you could be subjected to a PM by him (like I was) telling you how right he is ad nauseam. It ain't worth it.

[Jackgaryk]

thanks Tom C for the "train 45" video. have not seen it before. That guitar picker is Cody Kilby. imho one of the greatest bluegrass flatpickers ever. got to see him live with Ricky Skaggs & Kentucky Thunder and been a fan of theirs since.

"Oh yeah....the boy can play"

[Mandomax]

I wasn't going to weigh in, but Willie getting a lot of undeserved hate in this thread, IMHO. Having seen Del and the boys over 20X, and the Travelin' McCourys over 15x (with Jeff White, Jake Stargel, Cody Kilby, Bill Nershi, and Keller Williams occupying the guitar slot at various times), I will state that my least favorite incarnation of the group has been featuring Keller on guitar.
Keller has his own schtick, which I won't comment on, but when you try to shoehorn that in with one of the finest bluegrass bands on the planet, "that dog don't hunt." He doesn't play bluegrass guitar- no powerful Flatt runs, no driving bass runs, just no drive in general. During one show I attended, Keller started improvising on the letters of alphabet- it was as bad as it sounds.
Throwing in that clip of "Train 45" was not analogous AT ALL- Cody Kilby is one of the finest flatpickers out there, and knows his way around a guit-box. My personal opinion is that The McCoury Boys are smart businessmen, and they know their demographic lately has been the jam band scene. Combining forces with Keller increases their draw, which leads to some nice folding money.
Music is a huge tent, with room enough for us all. But words have meaning, and continued dilution of a word by broadening its definition eventually removes any semblance of what it was intended to describe in the beginning. I have typed too much already, but I will finish out by stating Ronnie is what I aspire to be as a picker and a man- great person, father and husband.

[Willie Poole]

Mandomax, Thanks

Mark, I am too dumb on this computer to know how to post a video but I will PM you so you can see one or three that is of me playing "Bluegrass".....If you think going barefoot while playing at a show where people pay quite a bit to get in to enjoy music then you need to be raised in a jungle, I have never done a thing to upset you that I know of and will say this that I have played with a few of the big bluegrass names in my time so I do believe I know what really makes music bluegrass, I have also found that what people on the west cost, namely the younger crowd, accept as bluegrass is different then what we on the east cost prefer...If you really think that what Keller Williams is playing falls into the Bluegrass category then you are the one that needs to be re educated....I did not knock what or how they played just the fact that is being sold as "Bluegrass" for that I blame the promoters, not the pickers because they need to make a living...

On second thought I will not PM you to show you those videos, you wouldn`t like them anyway because we are wearing shoes (boots)....

[journeybear]

... I did not knock what or how they played just the fact that is being sold as "Bluegrass" for that I blame the promoters, not the pickers ...

Hey, folks. As I said before, the name of the show is "Bluegrass Underground," but it's not all bluegrass. I haven't been able to find the complete roster of performers so I could see whether it ever was - yet - but I have a feeling it never was, in order to appeal to a wider demographic range. So yes, the name of the program is misleading. Discuss.



OK, are you done? OK, cool. Not a whole lot there, IMO.

[Mark Christensen]

Hey Willie you kill me! Yea I've heard this all before from you about all the great people you've played with etc. etc. I guess that gives you the right to condemn someone because he doesn't wear shoes on stage or doesn't play a proper G run and Willie I'm way into middle age and have lived on both coasts, the south and the Mid-West. Tell you what, why don't you just make a big list of all the people that don't play bluegrass to your liking and why, then we'll know where you really stand. C'mon get it out of your system in one giant post. Another thing Willie if you don't like the program on tv change the channel. Yea and I figured you wouldn't come up with an actual video.