B Diminished Scale

[Jeff Richards]

Hey,

Can anyone walk me through a Bdim scale.

Thanks,

Jeff

[Pete Martin]

B c# d e f g g# a#

[StuartE]

What Pete said.

Expanding...

There are two forms of diminished scale, depending on whether you start with a whole step or half step. Both alternate half and whole steps. The version starting with a whole step is the diminished scale, properly so-called. (The other version is sometimes called the half-whole diminished scale by jazz musicians and others.)

A diminished scale starting with a whole step would be played over a diminished chord. (Bo7 =B, D, F, Ab)

B, C#, D, E,F, G,G#, A#,(B).

Any of the notes in a diminished chords, as you probably know, can be considered the root of the chord. Bo7=Do7=Fo7=Abo7). So there are only three diminished chords.

Similarly only 3 diminished scales, properly so-called.

The version starting with a half step is often used to give an altered dominant sound. The scale spelled out above could be used for a Db7, E7, G7, or Bb7.

There are probably some advantages to thinking of a proper whole-half diminished scale starting on the b9 of a dominant 7 chord.

Symmetry of the diminished scale means that a pattern from the scale can be moved up or down by a minor third.

Hope this is helpful.

[DavidKOS]

What Pete said.


There are two forms of diminished scale, depending on whether you start with a whole step or half step. Both alternate half and whole steps. The version starting with a whole step is the diminished scale, properly so-called. (The other version is sometimes called the half-whole diminished scale by jazz musicians and others.)
.....
The version starting with a half step is often used to give an altered dominant sound. The scale spelled out above could be used for a Db7, E7, G7, or Bb7.

There are probably some advantages to thinking of a proper whole-half diminished scale starting on the b9 of a dominant 7 chord.

Symmetry of the diminished scale means that a pattern from the scale can be moved up or down by a minor third.

Hope this is helpful.

This is good info, although my teachers would use either dim. scale over a dim7th chord.

[SincereCorgi]

It's a pretty 'modern' sounding scale, too, so you might be cautious if you're using it much in popular styles that predate the late '40s or so. I spent a week trying to work it into some Django stuff and it just sounded really fussy and spoiled the effect.

[Jeff Richards]

Thanks so much for the replies. Now it's off to try it out.

Thanks again!

[StuartE]

Hey SincereCorgi,

I agree it's important to use the diminished scale carefully and in moderation, but we should also recognize there are times to use it.

Diminished 7 chords were used as passing chords in swing era tunes, as well as in bebop, perhaps even more often since boppers often used (iim7b5-)V7b9 instead.

Sorry that you weren't able to successfully work the diminished scale into your Django playing, but I think it can be done. Django used diminished arpeggios quite frequently.


Here's a video by a gypsy jazz guitarist showing some diminished and whole-tone patterns. Patterns could be applied to mandolin, I think.

[Paleosporin]

^ Hm. The "diminished" pattern he's playing is G# A B D E F. That's A harmonic minor (A B C D E F G#), nothing to do with the diminished scale (A B C D E♭ F F# G#). If that had been E♭ (or if the A was instead A#), then it would have been part of a diminished scale. As it is, he's not checking his work. The ideas are good, but I think we should be given the diminished scale if we're looking for the diminished scale. The corrected version:

Half-whole diminished

e-10-11-13
B-9-10-12
G-7-8-10
D-6-7-9
A-5-6-8
E-4-5-7

Whole-half diminished

e-10-12-13
B-9-11-12
G-7-9-10
D-6-8-9
A-5-7-8
E-4-6-7

The same pattern, for mandolin:

Half-whole diminished

E-2-3-5
A-3-4-6
D-4-5-7
G-5-6-8

Whole-half diminished

E-2-4-5
A-3-5-6
D-4-6-7
G-5-7-8

[SincereCorgi]

Hey SincereCorgi,

I agree it's important to use the diminished scale carefully and in moderation, but we should also recognize there are times to use it.

Diminished 7 chords were used as passing chords in swing era tunes, as well as in bebop, perhaps even more often since boppers often used (iim7b5-)V7b9 instead.

Sorry that you weren't able to successfully work the diminished scale into your Django playing, but I think it can be done. Django used diminished arpeggios quite frequently.

Well, shoot, Paleosporin beat me to the punch on this. Django used a whole lot of diminished arpeggio licks, but I can't think of any examples of him using a real diminished octatonic scale. I think it's foreign to the style if you want to sound '30s.

[Ron McMillan]

On a side-issue regarding 'diminished' scales/chords. I sometimes see chords referred to with a 'minus' symbol. e.g. D-

Should I read that as 'D diminished'?

[des]

D- means Dminor. The code for Ddim is Dº

[Jordan Ramsey]

Lots of good information here. I'll add that the closed patterns for this scale and arpeggio are fairly convenient on the neck of the mandolin.

Scale:

E                          1 3 4 6

A                  2 4 5 7

D          3 5 6 8

G  4 6 7 9

Arpeggio:

E                1  4

A           2  5

D      3  6

G 4  7

The scale uses four fingers per string, the arpeggio only uses index and ring.

[Ron McMillan]

D- means Dminor. The code for Ddim is Dº

Ahaah. I had assumed that the accepted diminutive for D minor was the much more common Dm.

[Paleosporin]

I like to listen to and analyze music that uses something that I'm researching, so that I can hear what other people do with it.



ABC notation (use http://www.mandolintab.net/abcconverter.php to convert into dots or tab):

X:2
T:The Dragonlord
T:from Dragon Quest (1986)
C:Koichi Sugiyama
M:2/4
L:1/8
Q:1/4=80
V:1 clef=treble
V:2 clef=bass octave=-1
%%barnumbers 0
%%contbarnb 1
%%staves {1 2}
K:C
[V:1]
%%MIDI channel 1
%%MIDI program 7
z4|z4|A,/B,/C/D/ _E2-|EF/_E/ A_A/_G/|F_EF_G-|
G_A/_G/ F_E|F/_G/F/_E/ DC|F/_E/D/C/ B,2-|B,4|
z4|z4|[^CA,]/[^DB,]/[E=C]/[^F=D]/ [G_E]2-|[GE][AF]/[G_E]/ [^cA][=c_A]/[_B_G]/|[AF][G_E][AF][_B_G]-|
[BG][c_A]/[_B_G]/ [=AF][G_E]|[AF]/[_B_G]/[AF]/[=G_E]/ [^FD][=EC]|[AF]/[G_E]/[^FD]/[=EC]/ [^DB,]2-|[^DB,]4:|
[V:2]
%%MIDI channel 2
%%MIDI program 2
[AA,][BB,][AA,][DB,]& D,C,D,C,|[AA,][BB,][AA,][DB,] & D,C,D,C,|_G_EGE|_G_EGE|_G_EGE|
_G_EGE|_G_EGE|_G_EGE|_G_EGE|
[AA,][BB,][AA,][DB,]& D,C,D,C,|[AA,][BB,][AA,][DB,] & D,C,D,C,|_G_EGE|_G_EGE|_G_EGE|
_G_EGE|_G_EGE|_G_EGE|_G_EGE:|

The scale is A diminished (A B C D E♭ F F# G#, but spelled A B C D E♭ F G♭ A♭). It's pretty easy to see what's happening. There's a nine-measure melody, and then that melody is repeated and harmonized with major thirds. The major thirds are outside of the pitch collection, so we're actually getting two octatonic scales at the same time in the second half of the tune. Our ear doesn't hear it that way, though; what we hear is that it's the same scale that we started with, but with that major third harmony. The melody itself is pretty simple. It starts off with a strong and typical statement: walking up the scale to the fifth degree.

Alright, let's do another one. This is from Béla Bartók's 44 Duets for Violin.

X:33
T:33
T:Erntlied / Harvest Song / Aratáskor
C:Béla Bartók
M:3/4
L:1/8
Q:"Lento," 1/4=58
%%staves {1 2}
%%MIDI program 41
K:Am
V:1
!p!A4- A(d|cB A2 B2)|(c2 A3) d|(cA2B A2-|A2 c)z z2|
[Q:"Più mosso, parlando," 1/4=88]
M:2/4
DDFF|!>!GD3|FFFF|!>!GD3|!>!G2GG|
M:3/4
"^poco a poco allarg."!>!FG F3D|[M:2/4]FFGF|!>!ED3-|D4-|[M:3/4]D4z2|
[K:Bbm][Q:"Tempo I," 1/4=58]z!p!(f=ga) b2-|b(f=gab)(f|=g)(fga) (b2-|ba) "^poco rit."(=gb2)(a|[M:2/4]b3)z|
[Q:"Tempo II," 1/4=88]z2!f!!downbow!EE|_GG !>!A E-|E2 GG|GG !>!A E-|E2 "^poco a poco allarg."!>!A2|[M:3/4]AA !>!GA G2-|[M:2/4]GE GG|
AG !>!F E-|E4|[M:3/4][Q:"Tempo I," 1/4=58]E4- E(A|GF E2 F2)|"^rallentando"G2 !>(!E4-!>)!|!fermata!!pp!E6|]
V:2
%%MIDI program 41
K:D#m
z!p!(GFE) D2-|D(GFED)(G|F)(GFE) (D2-|DE) (FD2)(E|D3)z z2|
[M:2/4]z4|!f!G,G,B,B,|!>!CG,3|B,B,B,B,|!>!CG,3|
!>!C2 CC|[M:3/4]!>!B,C B,3G,|[M:2/4]B,B,CB,|!>!A,G,3-|[M:3/4]G,4 z2|
[K:Am]
!downbow!!p!e4- e(B|^cd e2 d2)|(^c2 e3)B|(^ce2) (de2-|[M:2/4]e2^c)z|
!f!A,A,=CC|!>!DA,3|CCCC|!>!DA,3|!>!D2DD|[M:3/4]!>!CD C3A,|[M:2/4]CCDC|
!>!B,A,3-|A,4|[M:3/4]z!p!(_D_C_B,) _A,2-|A,(_D_C_B,_A,D)|z2 z!>(!(_B,_C_D)!>)!|!fermata!z6|]

In this one, the pitch material is divided between the two instruments. Each violin is given a minor tetrachord to work with for a while, then switches to another minor tetrachord. A tetrachord is simply the first four notes in a scale, so a minor tetrachord is the first four notes in a minor scale. The two instruments are never given the same tetrachord, and are in fact in different keys at the same time. For example, we can infer that in the first phrase, the first violin is in A minor while the second violin is in D# minor. When you put together two minor tetrachords that are a tritone apart, you get a diminished scale. I'll write a table to help keep track of the respective tetrachords and the conglomerate scale that they make.

Measure #	Vln 1	Vln 2	Scale
1	A B C D	D# E# F# G#	A diminished (A B C D E♭ F F# G#)
6	D E F G	G# A# B C#	D diminished (D E F G A♭ B♭ B C#)
16	F G A♭ B♭	B C# D E	F diminished (F G A♭ B♭ C♭ D♭ D E)
21	E♭ F G♭ A♭	A B C D	A diminished (A B C D E♭ F F# G#)
30	E♭ F G♭ A♭	A♭ B♭ C♭ D♭	E♭ minor (E♭ F G♭ A♭ B♭ C♭ D♭)

I should point out that the D and F diminished scales are actually the same scale; they contain the same exact pitches. Also, note that while the A diminished scale comes back, the relationship of the two instruments is reversed: vln 1 had A minor at the beginning, and then vln 2 has A minor later.

Generally, this is a difficult scale to find in the wild. Here are a couple more instances of the octatonic scale being used, from the realm of progressive metal.

Discipline - Into The Dream (the first thirty seconds or so)


Dream Theater - The Dark Eternal Night (most of this one)

[des]

Ahaah. I had assumed that the accepted diminutive for D minor was the much more common Dm.

Both / either Dm and D- are used for Dminor

[DavidKOS]

I spent a week trying to work it into some Django stuff and it just sounded really fussy and spoiled the effect.

Django used diminished arpeggios quite frequently.

Well, shoot, Paleosporin beat me to the punch on this. Django used a whole lot of diminished arpeggio licks, but I can't think of any examples of him using a real diminished octatonic scale. I think it's foreign to the style if you want to sound '30s.

I do not recall many examples - if -any - of Django playing the dim. scale.

Diminished arpeggios were used all the time, both over dim 7 chords AND over 7b9 chords in the Django style.
I have heard some Charlie Christian using the dim. scale, if I recall he did so on the bridge to "Air Mail Special"

Still it's useful scale - and I liked the detailed explanations offered so far.

[mandroid]

I thought a diminished 7th in the scale was a whole step to the I__ A to B

usual scale 7th to octave is a half step. A#/Bb to B

Maybe My Theory cells are getting Old.

[Paleosporin]

A diminished seventh is an augmented second away from the root of the chord.

G#°7 = G# B D F

F# to G# is a major second, F to G# is a half-step larger and therefore is an augmented second.

[DavidKOS]

I thought a diminished 7th in the scale was a whole step to the I__ A to B

usual scale 7th to octave is a half step. A#/Bb to B

Maybe My Theory cells are getting Old.

That's an interval and it is the 7th of the scale, but in this case that is a minor 7th ( C and Bb ) as opposed to the major 7th ( C to B natural).

The whole name of the dim. 7 th chord comes from what makes it different from the half-diminished chord (min7b5).

C min7b5 or half-dim. - C Eb Gb Bb. The 5th is diminished hence the name.

C dim 7 (full dim.) - C Eb Gb Bbb.

Yes, B double-flat is the correct spelling, and that is the other diminished 7th interval.

The chord is the same but has different spelling for each root:

D# dim 7th - D# F# A C

Eb dim 7th Eb Gb Bbb Dbb

and so on.

The easiest is the A dim 7th

A C Eb Gb.

A diminished seventh is an augmented second away from the root of the chord.

G#°7 = G# B D F

F# to G# is a major second, F to G# is a half-step larger and therefore is an augmented second.

G# B D F- same as Ab dim 7th, which is spelled Ab Cb Ebb and Gbb......sheesh.

The trick if it hasn't been mentioned on a 7b9 chord is to play the dim.7th a half step above the tonic to make the chord.

C 7 b9 - C E G Bb Db - use

the Db dim 7th - Db Fb (E) Abb (G) and Cbb (Bb).

I hope all my note-spelling is correct, I'm a little tired.

[Will Patton]

As David KOS mentioned, I think of (and I think a lot of swing players do as well) as the role of a diminished scale or arpeggio in a progression as outlining a 7b9 chord, i.e. a V7 chord in a progression. The b9 is one more tension bringing you home to the I chord - and that note (the b9 of the V chord) is almost more in the vocabulary of a lick than some theoretical dim scale that's "allowed" in a progression - just a cool note in a solo. There are of course other uses of dim chords in progressions. But they are often the connective tissue in a lot of great swing tunes.

[DavidKOS]

As David KOS mentioned, I think of (and I think a lot of swing players do as well) as the role of a diminished scale or arpeggio in a progression as outlining a 7b9 chord, i.e. a V7 chord in a progression. .

A lot of bop players did this too, lots of examples in the Parker Omnibook.