Any tenor banjo players - early jazz style

[DavidKOS]

I was wondering if anyone else on the mandolin forum also plays tenor banjo or some other style of early jazz banjo?

I've played since I was a teenager and played Dixieland parades and other gigs in New Orleans. I've used Chicago tuning (DGBE like bari uke), and regular tenor banjo tuning, CGDA, but mostly keep mine tuned to GDAE like an octave mandolin, mostly to make switching between mandolin and banjo easy. I've also used guitar banjos, but do not have one right now.

Plectrum I never played, I couldn't see the advantages of the CGBD tuning other than making it easy for a "classical" banjo player to use a flatpick and drop the 5th string and imitate tenor banjo parts.

So who else plays traditional jazz on 4 string banjo?



N.O. jazz gig about 15 years ago.....

[Ryk Loske]

Plectrum.

Ryk

[DavidKOS]

Really? Like I said, I never got plectrum.

Do you play solo or with bands?

[crisscross]

I have a Deering Goodtime Irish Tenor strung with Nylgut strings and tuned GDAE. I usually play jigs and hornpipes on it, but when working on a swing song, I sometimes play the melody on my tenor ( as I did in "Oh Lady be good").
I wouldn't call that jazz playing though, just simple melodies in the first position.

[Ryk Loske]

Really? Like I said, I never got plectrum.

Do you play solo or with bands?

Hi David,

Both actually ... but the band stuff up here in the Northeast Kingdom is very rarely jazz. With my wife we do early to mid 20th century music with a fair jazz flavor.
For me there's a richness to the plectrum that the tenor lacks. Check out Sean Moyses on YouTube.

Ryk

[Ryk Loske]

David,

I'm not putting tenors down or anything like that. I appreciate it all. So consider this as information only.

I go from here on the Cafe to BanjoHangout for the discussion of 4 stringers. There was a post there you might find interesting:

"TLG,

The trend (in the US) is away from tenor banjo to the standard banjo. (Yes, they were called thus before the "plectrum" designation). Many start on tenor, but switch to plectrum at one time or another.

Here is an article written by Harry Reser in 1926:

[From the February, 1926 issue of BMG, a Journal devoted to the Banjo, Mandolin and Guitar, published in England.]

Relative Merits of the Tenor and Plectrum Banjos for Orchestra Use – by Harry Reser

Almost every player – whether his natural instrument is the tenor banjo or the banjo - has wondered time and time again what the advantages would be in learning the other instrument. I think I can clearly define the uses and possibilities of both instruments to you once and for all.

I find that technical passages such as scales up and down the fingerboard, arpeggios, etc., are more easily played on the tenor banjo, than on the banjo. In a great many of my dance recordings I have featured a chorus of variations on the theme. These variations, while I can play them on the banjo, are much easier and more effective on the tenor banjo.

This is explained by the fact that the tenor banjo is tuned in fifths. Due to this tuning in fifths, the natural chords form open harmony. Advantage can be taken of this in getting a great variety of effects, such as a low bass note on the C string and the high pitch chord to follow it. Without doubt, the tenor banjo is the easiest of the banjo family to perform on.

The banjo, because of its tuning (CGBD), is a bit more complicated. The chord positions on this instrument form close harmony and give a very full and solid effect. None of the various types of banjos can compare to the standard banjo for solo playing and real feature work.
It is well worth any tenor banjoist’s time and money to get busy on this instrument.
***"

Harry Reser was a phenomenal player. Buddy Wachter is probably the closest you can come to Reser among current players.

As i said ... i prefer the sound of the plectrum. Plus in the duo setting with Lynne i need the "full and solid effect." that Reser mentioned. For the same reason i'm looking to upgrade to a MasterVox style instrument from Norbert Pietsch. (The style and maker of banjo used by Sean Moyses in those YouTube videos.)

Ryk

[catmandu2]

I played tenor for years before jumping fully with plectrum. I play solo now - standards, rags, "classics," etc.

[Don Stiernberg]

There are still some trad jazz gigs here in Chicago.Had one just the other day with a commonly called for lineup: trumpet, tuba, banjo. I use a tenor tuned C-G-D-A. Once in a while there will be a full "front line" of trumpet, clarinet, and trombone. The stretch on C-G-D-A makes soloing a challenge...people(even the other players)expect a good chunk of chord melody style, and I would guess the plectrum is more well suited for that. Usually by the time it's time to take a solo, I've already played a mess of chords so I tend to go single note style, and some re-positioning or uniques fingering is needed. I enjoy playing those gigs, even on banjo, because my father's record collection was heavy on the early jazz so those tunes are in my system from way back. Plus I've been able to meet and play with some great horn players. It's a gas to just play the groove and listen to what the cats play..

[Ryk Loske]

Way to go Don!
Maybe we can talk about this at Mando Camp North ?!
Ryk

[Pete Martin]

I've done a number of early Jazz gigs on tenor until I sold it a couple ears back. It is a lot of fun.

[Bruce Clausen]

Sorry to have to confess... I always thought of banjo as an instrument I was willing to play if the price was right. Did a certain amount of doubling (guitar and banjo) on Broadway shows, plus orchestral banjo parts on pieces like Rhapsody in Blue, Threepenny Opera Suite, Porgy and Bess Suite. Also modern chamber works by George Crumb, John Adams and a few others. And of course the odd Dixieland gig faking old twenties tunes. I never really learned the tenor tuning, and tended to get by using guitar tuning. Lots of guitar players used to do it that way, and often the written parts don't even seem to work with the tenor tuning.

I've owned a few tenors, but I always preferred using a long neck banjo, usually a five-string with the extra string removed. Just sounded better to me at the lower pitch than a tenor would have. If I was doing it over I'd probably learn tenor properly. I love what the old virtuosos did with it, including some of the Italian mandolinists. I think they thought of it as the louder alternative to mandolin back then.

[DavidKOS]

I appreciate all the replies.

David,


Here is an article written by Harry Reser in 1926:
.........
I find that technical passages such as scales up and down the fingerboard, arpeggios, etc., are more easily played on the tenor banjo, than on the banjo........
This is explained by the fact that the tenor banjo is tuned in fifths. Due to this tuning in fifths, the natural chords form open harmony. Advantage can be taken of this in getting a great variety of effects, such as a low bass note on the C string and the high pitch chord to follow it. Without doubt, the tenor banjo is the easiest of the banjo family to perform on.

The banjo, because of its tuning (CGBD), is a bit more complicated. The chord positions on this instrument form close harmony and give a very full and solid effect. None of the various types of banjos can compare to the standard banjo for solo playing and real feature work.
It is well worth any tenor banjoist’s time and money to get busy on this instrument.
***"

Harry Reser was a phenomenal player.

Ryk

I'd agree with that (and I am familiar with Harry Reser's work), although I used the guitar tuning instead of standard banjo tuning.

Perhaps I got much the same effect using "Chicago tuning", the "close harmony" thing, and I did think it easier for chord solos overall.

...people(even the other players)expect a good chunk of chord melody style, and I would guess the plectrum is more well suited for that..

I've had the same experience, and since I'm also a guitarist, that DGBE tuning was easy to use for chord melody. But you can do nice chord melody solos in 5ths tunings too, it just is voiced differently.

I never really learned the tenor tuning, and tended to get by using guitar tuning. Lots of guitar players used to do it that way, and often the written parts don't even seem to work with the tenor tuning.

I've owned a few tenors, but I always preferred using a long neck banjo, usually a five-string with the extra string removed. Just sounded better to me at the lower pitch than a tenor would have. If I was doing it over I'd probably learn tenor properly. I love what the old virtuosos did with it, including some of the Italian mandolinists. I think they thought of it as the louder alternative to mandolin back then.

And that's why I'm using GDAE tuning right now, so I can play the same solo stuff on mandolin and tenor banjo. BTW, I've used a 5 string and removed the short string too.

So maybe what I'm asking is how much do you gain by using CGBD rather than DGBE? I've played a tiny bit of 5 string banjo in "C" tuning, what used to be standard banjo tuning, but like I say, why the mixed tuning of a 5th and two 3rds?

[Jamie Masefield]

Hi David,

I started on the tenor banjo at eleven and later moved to the mando although I still play a fair amount of traditional New Orleans jazz on the tenor and still love it. The problem is that most of the best players in that medium that I've played with have passed away. The album that influenced me the most by far in tenor approach was "Harlem Banjo" by Elmer Snowden. If you havent heard it, I strongly recommend it. What blew me away about Elmer's playing was that he really solo'ed like a jazz musician, really improvising in the moment with incredibly lyrical phrasing. So many other tenor players who I had heard soloing seemed to be playing "prearranged" solo's that were nice variations of the melody but werent really improvising. Im always eager to hear tenor players taking improvised jazz solos. Thanks, Jamie

[Ted Eschliman]

Did a certain amount of doubling (guitar and banjo) on Broadway shows, plus orchestral banjo parts on pieces like Rhapsody in Blue, Threepenny Opera Suite, Porgy and Bess Suite.

I had the pleasure of returning to my alma mater recently (University of Nebraska, 1980) and sitting in with the Wind Ensemble for a performance of the Threepenny Opera Suite (Kurt Weill). I think it was written for plectrum (although the score didn't really specify), but I used the tenor tuning. It fit the character of the piece, and believe me, the director was hard up to find a local banjo player that could read music anyway.

[DavidKOS]

Elmer Snowden

A great player - he played with early Ellington, too.

[Joel Glassman]

I've done a number of early Jazz gigs on tenor until I sold it a couple ears back. It is a lot of fun.

Pete--Did you get ears back when you you sold it?

[catmandu2]

It's a gas to just play the groove and listen to what the cats play..

I was just thinking of this - playing (bass) in a salsa band was just about the most dang fun I've had.

I agree with Don (and David and Bruce an all) about the plectrum - I had one in a closet - always wanted to use it, but had so many other things going on... - finally made a transition from the tenor (and most of the guitar - which aggravates my CTS). Coming from life-long guitar playing and almost a couple of decades into the tenor and 5-string, as a solo player the plectrum (aside from its great sound) is a really great solution for me. I would sometimes do what Bruce said about using the five string thus, but have moved pretty much all the way into plectrum.

I played tenor with a large-ensemble Dixie-style band, which was a gas. But playing solo now, the plectrum is the medicine.

[catmandu2]

Inspired by discussion on an adjacent thread, I was thinking that angular Monk tunes would be just right on PB, and indeed they are - the punctual ability of the banjo perfect for rendering the jagged lines and figures, as well the PB voice (tuned down to CFAD) emulate the piano well. I'm now inspired to work up some of my modern favorites - although the audiences for which I'm playing aren't likely to be all too familiar...but since I'm just solo, anything goes

[LazyRiver]

I've been taking mandolin lessons for the last year and a half. I recently found myself prepping something with two brass players (T sax and baritone horn) for our community band Christmas party (I also play sax). I figured it would be a good time to get out my mandolin banjo. It worked out great, and got me to thinking it would make good jazz banjo. I've had tenor banjos, but never really took to them - much prefer my 5-string, even without the 5th string. Anyone else use a mando-banjo?

[John Morton]

A great player - he played with early Ellington, too.

I love "Harlem Banjo", a fine session.

By the way, Snowden is tuned low: GDAE

[DavidKOS]

I love "Harlem Banjo", a fine session.

By the way, Snowden is tuned low: GDAE

Wow, really? I'm not doubting you, but how did you find that out?

[catmandu2]

Wow, really? I'm not doubting you, but how did you find that out?

Well you can hear it.

It's been discussed quite a bit on the banjo sites - here for ex: http://www.banjohangout.org/blog/26078

[Pete Martin]

Pete--Did you get ears back when you you sold it?

Nope, just switched over to playing electric mandolin loud

[Bruce Clausen]

Wow, really? I'm not doubting you, but how did you find that out?

Check out the Youtube live performance of Lazy River. He's in C, playing mandolin fingerings, but sounding an octave lower.

John, I don't know if you'll recall that Elmer Snowden was living and teaching in San Francisco in the sixties. As was Pops Foster, another old Ellingtonian. Sorry I never quite got out to see either of them.

[John Morton]

Wow, really? I'm not doubting you, but how did you find that out?

I thought it was in the liner notes, but looking at them now I don't see it. I might have got it from the essay here: http://www.redhotjazz.com/elmer.html

The notes by the LP producer Chris Albertson also mention the two albums he produced for Prestige with Snowden and Lonnie Johnson. The cuts on YouTube are simple and beautiful, with Elmer on acoustic rhythm guitar behind Lonnie's singing and electric lead. I notice that Chris Albertson is still around to contribute recent comments!

Yes Bruce, there was so much I could have seen in those days when I didn't have a clue!