Let's Talk Trilliums

[sgarrity]

So I've been kickin' the octave idea around for quite some time. I wish I could have made the CBOM-O-Rama last weekend to actually get my hands on a few of these beatiful instruments. But since I couldn't make it up there, and you can't really go anywhere to play these things, I'm going to rely on my friends here at the 'cafe to help me out a bit.

There are a lot of really good makers out there. The ones I've looked at include Old Wave, Brock, Nyberg, Trillium, Petersen, Crump. Out of those I've only actually played a Petersen.

Based on talking to the builders about wait times, etc. I'm probably leaning toward the Trillium at this point. I also really like the design aesthetic of his instruments. They look a little more mandolin-like if that makes any sense. I'll probably be going with something around a 21" scale.

So any info/advice would be appreciated. I'm also looking for some sound clips. My close second choice would be a Nyberg. And the soundclips I've found of those have been very nice.

Thanks!

[jaco]

I talked to John Mcgann about these a few years ago. He said the word he had was the latest ones were really good. Maybe he'll chime in later.

[David Surette]

Hey Shaun,

I have been a Trillium player since 94. Back then, I had a four-course octave mandolin, which I used until about 2006. At that point (or maybe it was early 2007) I got a five-course cittern, with the longer scale and deeper body.
I had always been happy with the OM, and was not really looking for a new instrument. However, the bouzouki had always been clearly a third instrument for me, lagging behind the guitar and mando.
Having the cittern really changed that for me. I found I could do everything I had done on the OM, plus a whole lot more. The extra string really expanded my range, either a low D uncapoed, or a high A capoed at the fifth fret.
I have also become a big fan of the longer scale and deeper body. Several years ago in England I played a long-necked, deep-bodied Fylde (this was when I still had the four-course OM), and I was jealous of the resonance and ring of the instrument, as well as the delicious twang. When I got my cittern, I heard those sounds again, and I think a big part of it is the deeper body and longer scale length.
I know a lot of folks like the octave mandolin for the shorter scale and relative ease of playability, in terms of the reach. I really think the sound advantages of the bigger instrument completely outweigh the playability issue. Plus you can capo to the fifth fret, and you have an octave mandolin with an extra high A string (I tune DADAE, open).
The Trillium instruments are really top of the line, IMHO. The workmanship, attention to detail, and overall design aesthetic are lovely and classy, and Bob Abrams is an absolutely first-rate guy. The sound is on a par with the best other instruments I've had a chance to play (namely, Sobell and Fylde, I'm sure there are other great ones, too),
One thing I would say is that I think Bob has improved his design or his skills over the years, and I would recommend a new one rather than an old one. He is building some fabulous instruments right now. Good luck with your quest.

David

[Avi Ziv]

David - what do you consider "long neck" for a 5-course bouzouki/cittern ? Or rather what scale length do you like?

Also - I'm curious if you think Trilliums made a quantum leap in quality (design change) or gradual improvement over a long period of time? Is there a particular year you would consider a turning point, when one is looking at slightly older Trilliums?

Thanks

[John McGann]

I talked to John Mcgann about these a few years ago. He said the word he had was the latest ones were really good. Maybe he'll chime in later.

I've played David's (hey David!!!) and it is a wonderful instrument...I remember also playing another one somewhere along the line and it was also top notch. I've met Bob briefly and he seems like a great guy...I have no problem giving a hearty two thumbs up on Trillium Instruments.

[mandocrucian]

I've got the last Trillium cittern built with shorter (22.5" scale) neck, in the year 2000. This instrument passed through a couple of owners locally, virtually unplayed, until my wife came across it a few years ago and got it for me.

Really nice instrument, though the lowest strings would sound better with a couple extra inches of string length.

Niles H

[otterly2k]

Hey, Niles -- I remember you played on the Trillium OM I brought when I was at Don's mando-building workshop (concurrent with one of your workshops). You seemed to enjoy it... must've pre-dated your cittern acquisition.

Shaun - One thing I've learned (and confirmed in my experience at the CBOM-o-rama) is that for most of us, once you get to a certain level of quality, the rest is about preference... Abrams, Nyberg (and for that matter, Dean, Baird, Crump, Spira, Bussman, etc.) are all excellent builders that will deliver high quality instruments with great sound, playability and craftmanship. I think it takes time to find the one whose voice is just right for you... made more complicated by how hard it is to find ways/places to compare.

That said, choosing one to go with and spending time bonding with it is a fine way to go. Either you'll eventually bump up against things that don't sit quite right, or you will grow more and more together... (just like any relationship, right?)

I had a Trillium for a while... it was gorgeous and sonorous and the only reason I didn't keep it was that I needed a shorter scale. I used the money from its sale to finance the Dean I have now. If my hands were a little bigger, I probably wouldn't have needed to make the change, although I have no regrets about it at this point. The two have different voices, but equally lovely.

I have no direct experience with Nyberg's instruments, but I will say that when I was choosing a luthier, I had it narrowed down to Dean and Nyberg, and that Lawrence was very professional and cordial in correspondence. Went with Dean for his very unique aesthetic. Again, no regrets, but have much respect for Nyberg as well.

[David Surette]

Hey Avi,

In terms of the scale, I am not sure. Whatever is listed as the scale length on the Trillium website is what I've got on mine. I have just noticed that overall, I usually like the sound of the longer-scale instruments, regardless of the maker. I thought the quote about different makers and personal preference was a good one.
As to the history of Trillium, you'd have to ask Bob. Like many luthiers, he is always trying to fine-tune and improve things. I know one innovation on the citterns is a carbon-fiber rod that runs from the neck block to the tail block, which provides stability and allows him to make a thinner top without them caving in under all that string tension. I know that one of the fringe benefits of that is an instrument that is very stable as to tuning, and that works great with a capo (I guess that's two benefits, isn't it...).
Without tooting my own horn too much, if any of you want to hear some sound clips of the Trillium cittern (I think the initial post asked about clips), you can check out the sound samples on CDBaby for my Green Mandolin CD. Tracks 1, 7 and 10 feature the cittern on melody, and most others feature it playing accompaniment.

David

[Avi Ziv]

David - thanks. I just popped over to the Trillium site and saw that the Cittern scale is 25.4" so this answers my question. Interesting info on the carbon-fiber rod. I didn't know about that. I will definitely check out your recording

Cheers

[sgarrity]

This is great info folks. Thank you all very much! I just bought both of David's recordings so I'm looking forward to hearing some more of that Trillium Cittern. David brings up a good point about scale length. Most of me wants a shorter scale so I can use my mandolin knowledge. But another part of me wants to try a longer scale instrument and maybe some different tunings. The only issue is that I am a mere hobby picker and have very little time for learning a completely new instrument. Maybe between now and the time I'm ready to place an order I'll be able to get my hands on a few!

[John Flynn]

This is great info folks. Thank you all very much! I just bought both of David's recordings so I'm looking forward to hearing some more of that Trillium Cittern. David brings up a good point about scale length. Most of me wants a shorter scale so I can use my mandolin knowledge. But another part of me wants to try a longer scale instrument and maybe some different tunings. The only issue is that I am a mere hobby picker and have very little time for learning a completely new instrument. Maybe between now and the time I'm ready to place an order I'll be able to get my hands on a few!

Shaun, I did the OM thing about a year and a half ago when I got Joe Mendel to make me one. BTW, I can highly recommend his work if you are looking for options. He is a great guy to deal with also.

But the point I wanted to make is to your comment about scale length. The thing I realized is that once you get into the "octave range" you have to start modifying your fingerings in any case. You can't fully use mandolin fingerings any more. My OM has a 22.75" scale length, but I have tried OM/Zouks from 20" to 26" or so and they all seem to play similarly, but all of them play somewhat differently than mandolins. So I would not be concerned about the longer scale lengths if that's what you want. Short or long, it's the same transition.

Now going to GDAD tuning is a bit of a transition and one to give serious consideration to. One thing I would recommend no matter what you choose is get an OM with a tailpiece that takes both loop- and ball-end strings, like an Allen. At some point, you will appreciate the flexibility that gives you to experiment with string gauges, because you can use guitar string singles, which are easier and cheaper to come by and available in lot more varieties.

[Gerry Cassidy]

...The only issue is that I am a mere hobby picker and have very little time for learning a completely new instrument.

Shaun, I've heard you play and you're a few levels above a "mere hobby picker"!

I think you'd settle in on an OM in quick fashion. My .2 cents is you would have more fun with a shorter scale so you could more easily rip off some of your mandolin licks when you get the urge.

The longer scales are generally better for accompaniment, but you've heard/played my Pura which is 21" scale. I used it strictly for accompaniment in the Klezmer ensemble at the Cape Cod Mando Camp this past weekend and it fit in like a glove. For the few moments where I had a clue what I was doing, anyway!

We'll need to get together once you get yours!

[sgarrity]

Thanks for the kind words Gerry. There are so many decisions to be made when getting into the CBOM world. I think I may just buy something in the sub $1k range to get used to the instrument and then decide what to order. I'm looking at a few different ones and will hopefully have a decision made in the next few weeks. Stay tuned!

[spenser]

Sean-I just watched your YouTube video, and agree, you are much better than you give yourself credit for! Great tune by the way, check Traditional Tabs site to try to dig it up and only find Hunt the Buffalo, which looked different than the way you were fingering. ANy help is appreciated, would like to learn it on my OM.

I have Weber OM, not sure how they compare to Trilliums, as it is my first, but the sound is worth the purchase! I am not that far from NH and find myself checking the Trillium page with some frequency as well, but have no OM friends up this way with other instruments to try out. Good luck in the search

[spenser]

Shaun-I just watched your YouTube video, and agree, you are much better than you give yourself credit for! Great tune by the way, check Traditional Tabs site to try to dig it up and only find Hunt the Buffalo, which looked different than the way you were fingering. ANy help is appreciated, would like to learn it on my OM.

I have Weber OM, not sure how they compare to Trilliums, as it is my first, but the sound is worth the purchase! I am not that far from NH and find myself checking the Trillium page with some frequency as well, but have no OM friends up this way with other instruments to try out. Good luck in the search

edit-typo

[walt33]

Here are photos of a recent Trillium cittern, with Claro Walnut back & sides, Redwood top and an African Mahogany neck. No, it's not mine! Bob sent the photos in response to an inquiry. I was pleasantly surprised by both the price range and delivery time. He said an instrument ordered now would be delivered in January 2010.

Walt

[sgarrity]

I got David's Green Mandolin and Northern Roots recordings yesterday. WOW!! What beautiful music. I can't believe I've been missing out on these. That cittern really sounds good. So I'm taking David's advice about a longer scale instrument since I really love the 'zouk sound.

I bought a 23.5" Flatiron octave/bouzouki that will hopefully make it here by Friday. I figured that this instrument will help me decide about a longer scale. If I adapt to playing it easily, then I'll probably wind up ordering a long scale 'zouk. If I find that the 23.5" is just too much for me, then I'll probably order something in the 21" range. We'll see what happens!!

[sgarrity]

The Flatiron is here!! What a cool instrument. I can't believe it took me this long to finally get an octave/zouk-ish instrument. The scale will take some getting used to but I just sat and played fiddle tunes for about 30 minutes and it went from unfamiliar to much easier in that short amount of time. This is going to get my pinky some serious strength and coordination.

I'll post some pics in another thread in the next week or two. First order of business will be changing the strings, hopefully this weekend. This is gonna be fun!

[John Flynn]

Shaun:

Congratulations on the new acquisition! Those Flatty's are cool instruments. FYI, linked is a recent thread in the CBOM section on some stringing advice I asked for and some experiments I've done on an OM/zouk of about the same scale length. You might get some ideas.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=54773

[sgarrity]

I just posted a couple of videos of me playing the Flatiron on my YouTube page is anyone is interested. I just changed the strings on it and it seems to have developed a truss rod buzz.....I'm not a happy camper at the moment!

[Eddie Sheehy]

Make sure it's not a loose tuning screw/post/knob/sleeve...

[sgarrity]

Problem solved. It was the truss rod nut. Must have knocked it loose some how.

[Mandobar]

I believe that is a picture of my cittern.

[Nick Gellie]

I enjoyed reading this thread and thought to reactivate it.

Thanks for the tip David for where to find some cittern sound clips. You can also find some more on Dave's website:

http://davidsurette.bandcamp.com

I also managed to find pictures of Mandobar's Trillium cittern.

[Troy H]

Wow. I was about to reply to the OP until I realized it was posted over 5 years ago!